Two different stories about consent and "rape", a paradox

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by kazenatsu, May 25, 2022.

?

Was it "rape"?

  1. It was not rape in 1st story or 2nd story

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. It was rape in 1st story, not in 2nd story

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
  3. It was rape in 2nd story, not 1st story

    3 vote(s)
    15.0%
  4. It was rape in both 1st story and 2nd story

    13 vote(s)
    65.0%
  5. In both stories it was sort of rape and sort of not rape, not simple

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The fact that the wife consented once doesn't mean all other sex is covered.
     
  2. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I think all here agree that this is the current social contract, and in my opinion also morally correct. But it is true that it hasn't always been the social contract. We are speaking from modern and western moral views.

    It's also undoubtedly true that 200 years from now, things you and I think are perfectly ok will be looked back as horribly immoral. Eating meat comes immediately to mind. I can think of little moral justification for eating meat given all the alternatives now available, especially given the factory farming horrors done to the animals. Yet... I will eat a chicken burger.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    In these modern times, will people have to ask their partners whether they have a penis, and whether they were born a male or female?

    Will marriage vows have to include specific clauses about marital infidelity and the wife's sexual obligations?
    "I promise not to cheat on you, so long as you fulfill your marital sexual obligations at least once a month, unless it is because of legitimate reasons"

    That could get pretty awkward and embarrassing, in front of a crowd of people.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they should have a relationship that is a little closer than not knowing whether their prospective partner has or doesn't have a penis!!
     
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    Maybe, yes, but that is not always the case.
     
  6. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Sure. But what if they used to have a penis? Thats still going to make a lot of people feel horribly deceived. If you were born with a penis, and now you have a fake vagina, and you didn't tell me, and I had sex with you..... I am going to feel violated.
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    200 years ago, most people would have raised an eyebrow at the suggestion that it was even possible for a husband to "rape" his wife.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, our laws do change - as you've well noted.

    And, the US has not had a particularly laudable position in improving the mistakes of history.
     
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    The modern Progressive Left tells people they shouldn't feel violated, and have no right to feel violated from this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
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  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    My point was that the VICTIM will know it to be rape, because the VICTIM did not consent to sex with a male.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest that there are dangers in sex so casual as to not know this about one's prospective partner.
     
  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    The Progressive Left want to be free to impose their sex upon anyone they want to impose it upon .. including children. They're all about 'respect', but not when it comes to getting their jollies.
     
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  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    How much research, fact-checking, and very specific questions about every possible thing under the sun need to be asked?

    A person could hardly begin to imagine all the different ways they could possibly be defrauded involving sexual consent.

    The days of two people dating each other for 7 months before finally agreeing to get married and having sex for the first time are long gone.
    I remember my grandma telling me back in the old days, dating someone for only two and a half months was considered very short, and people would question whether it was too soon for them to get married. Also, in the old days, if a girl had sex on the first date she was considered a total sleaze and tramp. Whereas, these days, it seems most younger people have a phone app and it's expected the girl will have sex on the very first date.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    My interpretation of the OP is that the woman was seriously deceived even as to the person with whom she was having sex.

    As mentioned repeatedly, consent doesn't hold through that level of deception.
     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This is just plain silly. Let's try to remain serious.
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should form a relationship before having sex!!

    Your concern has ALWAYS been real.
     
  17. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    The "woke" do. I don't think it appropriate to call them progressive. They tend to be recessive, bringing back segregation, identity politics, cultural separation, and tend to be as authoritarian as the far right, trying to tell everyone not that they are free to think and b what they want, but what they must think and do.

    I think it vitally important for true liberals to distinguish ourselves from this. Liberal means free. It means you can wear a burka or be a nudist. Up to you. It means you can have sex with who you want so long as both of you (or all 3 of you if that's your thing) consent to it. It means you can speak whatever language, have whatever religion, project whatever identity, so long as you don't compel others to share your views or to say that they do.

    The "woke" left crosses this line to regressive and authoritarian too often for me to call them liberal.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    The thing is, when marital relationships became a passé thing, the rules governing consent had to change too.

    In the old days, it was easy. If a woman made a vow in front of a group of witnesses, she was consenting to sex with that person. If a man had sex with her and she didn't scream, she was consenting. (Assuming a knife was not being held to her throat, and that she was not drugged or unconscious)
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yikes!! Where did you get THAT idea???

    Do you think it is conservatives who oppose white supremacy in the USA?

    Do you think it is conservatives who fight for women's rights to their own healthcare decisions?

    I could go on, but I suspect you are either talking about your own country or you just got seriously misinformed.
     
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    Is forcing a woman into ObamaCare giving her the right to "make her own healthcare decisions"?

    But you are against the right of people to choose or make up their own minds, right?

    Have these "conservatives" you speak of ever tried to use government to treat black people differently from white people? I didn't think so.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense.

    What changed is a recognition that domestic violence is NOT OK.

    It also became an issue of women's rights.

    Domestic violence used to be ignored. It was considered fine to beat your wife in America.
     
  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    We're not talking about violence here.

    (Unless you are trying to redefine the word, which I'll give you the benefit of the doubt you are not)

    The wife is NOT hurt in any substantial physical way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You aren't forced to join Obamacare. And, you aren't giving up any rights to decisions if you do.
    You have to do WAY better than that.

    There are LOTS of things you don't get to choose to do - murder, bank robbery, rape, etc., etc.

    Which one upsets you?
     
  24. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    Only fined with a very big tax penalty.
     
  25. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    By not living in a binary bubble.

    Most conservatives do, yes. So do most on the left. But there are others on the right who are bigots and who support white supremacy. They are racist. There are also some on the left who are also very racist, demanding that people are defined by their race, etc. We call them "woke".

    Many do, yes. I think you may have been programmed by your political culture to think in binary and that conservatives must think and do that and liberals must think and do this, and that each group is a monolith. It is not.

    I am talking about the world at large. You keep trying to make it all about your own country, not me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022

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