UK Direction on Clean Air

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by WillReadmore, May 23, 2023.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,478
    Likes Received:
    16,553
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Why should West Texas or Wyoming have to conform to air quality needed in our major cities?
     
  2. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    24,509
    Likes Received:
    7,250
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    My problem with the UK model is that it requires mass surveillance of the population.

    My preferred solution is to make better electric cars. We don't force people to use cars instead of horses, after all.
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,478
    Likes Received:
    16,553
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I absolutely agree with your preference for developing better EVs in greater numbers. We do need serious improvements in car charging infrastructure, including in apartment parking.

    Yes, the UK direction requires more surveillance. They have already bought off on a LOT more surveillance than we have.

    If their pollution control were implemented here, I think we would implement it such that records of behavior are not maintained. Such a system doesn't rely on recording behavior - only on identifying entrance of vehicles that are outside the pollution limits and issuing charges.

    We do the same with intersection surveillance - we surveil for breaking laws and issue tickets for that, but we don't record where cars go.
     
  4. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    24,509
    Likes Received:
    7,250
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm not in favour of intersection surveillance either. I tend to think all money spent on speeding cameras should be spent on physical police instead.

    Cameras are not a huge problem at the moment because it takes a lot of expensive labour to monitor them. The AI future is going to change this pretty soon, letting the state automatically fine you for all sorts of things. It's near absolute power. And absolute power corrupts. Why? To marginally reduce speeding rates? There are other methods that aren't nearly as invasive or totalitarian. I would rather a complete, immediate ban on ICE vehicles than the UK direction.

    We are moving toward our own brave new world at an accelerating rate. Look at Shanghai for a preview of the shape of things to come. The future of totalitarianism is not putting people against the wall, it's mass surveillance and propaganda. We should take a stand against it while it's still possible to prevent.
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,478
    Likes Received:
    16,553
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't understand the "absolute power" idea. The fines one gets from surveillance cameras has to come with actual evidence, including photography. I'm not sure I see the difference that comes with paying for an officer to be present.

    We also have tickets issued by air traffic surveillance.

    I'm definitely in favor of more officers, which has to include better training and better compensation for the officers.

    There is certainly reason to be concerned about AI in general, but drawing lines against security surveillance isn't an easy question, I think. I'm not very in favor of putting up limits to law enforcement without there being serious reasons.

    I don't
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,478
    Likes Received:
    16,553
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Woops.

    "I don't" ... know of a good way to draw a line.
     
  7. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    59,150
    Likes Received:
    4,611
    Trophy Points:
    113

    ???? They dont. Their air quality is much better and have no need to conform to the poorer air quality of most major cities.
     
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,841
    Likes Received:
    11,316
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I support this in principle and theory, but not how it is inevitably going to be applied.
    It makes sense for some very high-density areas like around London, maybe the centers of several other big cities.

    But it is going to be ridiculous with many smaller cities trying to implement the policy, basically just trying to punish people who do not drive the right cars and make their life more difficult.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2023
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,478
    Likes Received:
    16,553
    Trophy Points:
    113
    CAFE standards apply to manufacturers.

    So, they are in effect throughout the USA.

    Remember that I pointed to UK, as they manage to have different emissions standards for high density locations where the locals want it.

    As I remember, you didn't like that idea for some reason.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,478
    Likes Received:
    16,553
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, it is trivially easy for places that are fine with the pollution they have.

    UK allows cities to make up their own minds. (As I understand it.)

    So, today there ARE such standards in London, but NOT in Manchester.

    Manchester is considering to implement the UK system for their city.
     

Share This Page