UK Suffers As A Bystander To Europe's Crisis:

A country does not suffer just because it retains its political control over its own territories, the countries that will suffer are all the countries dumb enough to hand over their sovereignty to the raving amateurs in Bruxelles.

The UK should leave the EU completely, the only thing the UK should be doing is trading with other european nations. Centralizing political control is extremely bad since it creates abusive political monopolies that lack the ability to adapt to local circumstances and it prevents political competition and innovation.

 

OK, bare in mind my question was "why is it bad for the UK?"

1 - I wish there were more elected officials for sure, but I'm not sure why this is any worse for the UK than other EU states.
2 - I don't know what you mean here, how is the EU stopping the UK from helping UK businesses?
3 - Why is the European arrset warrent bad for the UK?
4 - Does the EU prevent the UK from negotiating trade deals without EU persmission? Can you cite examples?
5 - Please specify the red tape issues for small and medium businesses?
6 - How is it a scam and what problems is the EU causing the UK regarding climate change?
7 - Either explain this or I'll just have to continue to LOL.
8 - The EU has turned no one into a lier; they did it to themselves. No one can force someone to tell lies. If UK politicians have beceome liers as a result of UK EU membership, I would say they are people of low moral character.

Free trade within the EU block. If you're a EURO country, goods are traded without some non-value adding (*)(*)(*)(*) in a suit making money off currency transactions. Free movement of people within the block; now skills which are specific to a country are easily moved around, helping the individuals find work and the host countries develop new industry.

 

(I did bare in mind your question) and I didn't say it is worse for us. If other EU states and their citizens are happy to have unelected bureaucrats and foreign politicians dictating their affairs I have no issue with that, but I'm not. And there won't be more elected officials. Nothing would ever get done if more democracy were to be introduced. The EU is simply too big to work that way.

It doesn't surprise me that, along with the general public, you don't know what I mean. Unfortunately this stuff isn't announced on our nightly news and that's a shame because the electorate cannot make an informed decision without such information. The European Commission says whether member states can state aid industries. These decisions are not in parliamentary* or even in government hands, though the Commission did approve state aid in the case of the bank bailouts here when it shouldn't have. The banks should have been better regulated, but allowed to fail. The EU uses structural funds to subsidise jobs in industries when it refuses to allows similar subsidies here. We pay twice, in lost jobs and in our taxes supporting EU funds. The EU controls trade within the EU as part of the largely British civil servant designed single market.

British citizens can be taken and incarcerated in other EU states and the British government can do nothing legally to prevent this, even if the standards of justice are not up to a reasonable standard in the state issuing the warrant (provided the documentation from the issuing state is correct.) As an example, please see the case of Andrew Symeou. There are others and the EU's evolving criminal code doesn't have the protections for the accused against the state that we have traditionally had here. Before you dismiss this with a LOL!, please think about it for a while.

Yes and no, we just don't do it. The FCO knows the rules and sticks to them.

Red tape covers every aspect of running a small business these days. The EU even has an award scheme for ideas on how to reduce it. This will give you a brief insight into the problems it causes, and British officials have always goldplated EU regulations. Doesn't that alone indicate how unsuitable we are for EU membership?

Do you actually believe man is causing the climate to change in any significant way? It must be the most discredited "scientific" theory in a very long time. As for the problems the EU is causing, please see its directives on the subject, goldplated again by our dire "greenest government ever" coalition.

Does this reallly need an explanation? Do you ever follow the European press? The Continental European establishment and its followers cannot accept that we have very genuine concerns about our position in the EU. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TRaW4eSEBo"]SNUB OR NOT? - YouTube[/ame]

I have no idea whether Sarkosy snubbed Cameron, but he wasn't all Gallic charm as he was with the people he greeted before and after was he? Could it be that he understands the federalists will have to fight to get their Financial Transaction Tax imposed on the City? We might agree with the FTT but do we really want its revenues bailing our the eurozone's debt?

I didn't say the EU had forced our politicians into being liars, but if Macmillan, Wilson, Heath, Callaghan and Thatcher had been been honest about what EU membership meant in the first place, we'd probably never have joined, and if Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron had been honest at subsequent elections they'd never have been elected. If they'd been honest we could have been the friend to European integration that Churchill wanted us to be. You're absolutely (*)(*)(*)(*) right - they are of low moral character, even those who thought they were acting in our best interests.

Like I said, access to the single market EU membership is not dependent on EU membership. A suit makes money or EU bureaucracy makes money? What's the difference? I'd rather have the suit make it under the control of a good democratically elected government. At least the suit pays taxes at that government's instigation.

I have no objection to free movement of people, provided an individual state can restrict it unilaterally if it sees fit, ie if it doesn't benefit the host country and its citizens. And why should we help an industry to develop in say, Romania or Latvia, if helping is detrimental to the British people's interests? We can still help from outside the EU anyway and could help more effectively if the money didn't have to go through the EU's corrupt system.

Here's picture from the archives ...



* I think Denmark might be an exception in that its parliament retains more control over what its ministers can agree to. At least this used to be the case, but that might have changed.

 

True, mostly because of the Daily-Mail attitude, inherent to some posters that have British citizenship.

Anyways, I wonder why you say it "was inevitable considering the OP" -- you've got issues with the New York Times or something?!

 

BTW -- no snub from Sarkozy to Cameron on this one. They've met before that day.

Besides, Sarokozy -- if he wants to give a snub -- does so very clearly.

Recent events show that:

Sarkozy@Cameron: "You've missed a good opportunity to shut up".

 

The advantage Sarkozy has over others is that his lack of height almost guarantees that he can never see the point .
At some point someone will want to draw sensible conclusions on the effects that dwarves have in politics -- Medvedev , Putrid , Sarkozy and that slimy Italian , Berty the Toady .



Also , Sarkozy has an appalling taste in singers -- missed nearly every note when she appeared on , Later with Jools .

 

Wouldn't know about that. I'm tone deaf!

Did you know many of the leaders at the summit. Have to admit I didn't know more than about a third.

Here's a video of them lining up for their group photo [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcqG2xYfKdU]here.[/ame]

I recognised the Belgian PM with his natty little bow tie. He's quite a character. Clever and and from humble beginnings, though that doesn't necessarily mean he's acting in the interests of the Belgian people, though obviously that's for the Belgians to decide.

 

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No offense Jap, and I wanted your response to this in a serious way more than others. But you are in fact the EU equivalent of the Daily Mail; one sided and agenda driven.

 

These EU discussions are starting to look very much like the US partisan discussions.... Well done lads and ladies... The more you do this, the more you fail us all.

 

The big question is , Where is Angela Dumfnoodle?
I think she is there , if you are quick witted and with good eyesight .
Deliberately on the back row and swamped
With the Big Nose , SarkyDozy , on the very far left it all seems ripe for conspiracy thinking .

 

Please, eloborate Leffe!

My feeling is that you're merely repeating the criticism on my part coming from my friend Heroclitus.

The article in the OP (OP can mean: Orginal Post, Opening Post or Orginal Poster) comes from the NYT, and it said what is accepted as fact: UK has isolated herself.

What I take issue with, is that some among you (British posters or British diaspora like yourself, Leffe) want to present this is as "splendid isolationism".

This is the 21st century, and the UK, in general terms, is of little importance overall.

How on Earth can you think this is "good" as you said earlier on.

That's just madness!

It's crazy!

It's cuckoolukoe!

 

Nope,...

Most Europeans -- the French, the Belgian, the Germans, the Austrians, the Spanish, the Portugese -- accept what's happening and want to do something about, to be precise: to fix it and make something good of all this.

It basically is everyone against one, or 26 memberstates against the UK.

On most political issues, a British Socialist will agree with a French, German or Italian socialist. A British Lib-Dem will agree on most issues with Lib-Dems from Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, etc.

However, the British Conservatives are in an entire different league of their own. They used to be integrated into the EPP (European People's Party) that consisted of European Conservatives: Christian-Democrats.

Christian-Democrats, however, have feeling with civil society.

British Conservatives are mainly bigots and gold diggers -- as such, and I made posts about this about two years ago -- the British Conservatives removed themselves from the EPP, in the process losing a lot of influence. Before last summit, there was an EPP conference. You may have never heard of the EPP, but they are pretty important.

Tories 'stupid' to leave EPP bloc

 

For such a young guy , you seem so needy for " certainties " in your world view , almost afraid to say anything , unless it is first put in to print so that you can repeat it as an "authority" statement .Try thinking for yourself !!
The bad news for you is that the view of a single journalist writing for the NYT or Daily Mail does not turn an opinion into a fact ( DM , considered as a comic by thinking people , and there for the unthinking part of the middle class plus those that need complex subjects turned into something simple ).

I thought it was just old people and obsessives who demanded things in neat parcels , and hated change and resisted it wherever possible. Not youngsters !!
As usual , there is more than one way to "skin a cat" and in this matter you can choose , for example , whether it is best to work from the "inside" where your voice will barely register , or from the outside , where far greater flexibility of speech and action is possible .
You --- like most other people you have appointed as your brain ( News Papers , TV and celebrity Gurus ) --- do not seem to understand that all news is reported against a political agenda and/or sub text .
You have to learn to "translate" news and dig out its true meaning .
This recent meeting was actually a complete and utter pointless exercise .
Getting to the bones , it dealt with future behaviour to stop the present crisis ever repeating itself , and to agree rules and regulations for such a state of affairs .
Tremendous .
But what about trying to sort a melting EU and EZ club NOW ?
Why not discuss means and measures to prevent the EZ dying on its feet rather than its composition and member rules in time for the next crisis which is at least 15 years away!!( experts tell us this crisis is with us for at least another decade) .
Britain naturally wants as little to do with the EZ as possible for obvious reasons -- we have our own currency .
It will never join a future EZ until that is first defined and then seen to work in practise and better than the present way we operate .
As for Team GB no longer being a power -- that is rubbish . Whether it is the fifth or sixth largest world economy , I could not care less . All I know is that it is punching many times above its weight and only a retard would vote for measures which would immediately guarantee to reduce its economic size and potency .
Team GB is essentially a service provider in terms of its economy . Our Financial Services Sector is not just key to our overall performance , it dictates our very strategy .
You need to spend much more time looking at options before you charge dogmatically into a fixed position .
Try taking off your Federal State hat and spending some time , for example , thinking about real consequences as they would effect individual members .
Each country has its own GDP profile and the idea of treating all members in an identical overall way is dangerous nonsense --- that is principally the cause of the current mess .
Plus we need to re-scrutinise the true motives of those running the " system" and their competence for the job .Having a bunch of amateurs running the biggest trade sector in the world is lunatic .
Enough .

 

I've heard of the EPP. They're the most pro-federalist of all the EP's groups and as such they are totally at odds with the platform British Conservatives were elected on. That they were in the EPP for years should have been a scandal, but such is the state of British politics and journalism, it was swept under the carpet and was virtually unknown to the public. And as for being 'stupid' to leave the EPP, the Conservative party is stuffed full of eurohphiles and they had to be dragged from the EPP.

The EP, expensive though it is to maintain, is not very important.

 

More than the others? Please explain; who are the others?

 

Wow, this is so interesting. What will happen when they bocome Greece at 120%?

In every western country, it is the older half of the population that owns the capital gains. So their financial power is higher than any working person's. So I guess a good bet is that retirement related fundings such as government social security systems and individual retirement accounts will remain solvent forever, even if it means totally enslaving all workers now and in the future.

You assume that a debt must be balanced before nationalization can take place. Why? That's not how it was done in the post-ww2 era. Isn't what matters that you pay your debth in your own national/regional currency or not? Nationalization simply removes the demands of creditors by leaving them out in the cold, and replaces them with new money that businesses can borrow operating cash from.

This works only for loans that are owed in GBP. Do they exist in significant numbers?

What would have happened if they had been made to close? Would it have been a bad or a good thing for Europe?

 

Likely Chaos and mayhem .
It's just like you having huge debts , spread across a number of lenders .
When your debt assumes a zero value -- you cannot or will not pay up --- the money you owe should obviously cease to have an asset value in the lenders books .This affects capitalisation and then credit worthiness.
BUT IN AMERICA THEY " CHEAT " AND SHOW THESE VALUELESS ASSETS AS WORTH SOMETHING -- AND IN GENERAL TERMS , BY AS MUCH AS IT SUITS THEM . QUITE LEGAL , BUT MADNESS BEYOND BELIEF . They changed the Accounting rules to stop America being seen as Bankrupt .
Bet you find that impossible to believe .

In Bank terms this mesh of transactions stretches indefinitely and indebtedness is only highlighted in the paper trail which is nearly impossible to unravel .
Shutting down Bank X in isolation does not have consequences that only affect that bank . They affect a web of related financial matters that are so huge that their unravelling might take years .
The whole system would be seen to have no intrinsic value .
Humanity has never faced anything remotely like it and there is no possible solution other than by applying Bankruptcy laws as they apply to you and me , to institutions and Sovereign States
The end of the world as we know it .

 

This is utterly outrageous!

Or, it could be that you do not care for your own moral bankruptcy.

The British Conservatives now form a group together with the extreme-nationalist mainly from Eastern and Central Europe, the homophobes, the holocaust-deniers, etc.

You ought to be proud, eh?!

What a disgrace!!!

 

Same thing that happened to Germany two weeks ago. A failed Bund auction.

But that financial power doesn't come from their total work over their life time. In these State Retirement funds and programs they barely pay into the system and receive many times over what they paid into it. While the younger workers will bare the burden of paying the retirement of the older population. There is always a breaking point in which this is not sustainable. It's like a Ponzi Scheme. Ponzi Schemes always fail.

The debt has to be balanced as the counter parties to these assets are the very people you need the new money from. Wiping out a few trillion in asset value for a nation equals death of an economy. You can wipe out share holders and bond holders (equity) but you can not wipe out asset value.

US nationalized Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Their losses are nationalized now. As of Nov 9th, 2011 it has cost the American tax payers $200 billion (officially).

UK nationalized Northern Rock for a cost of £1.4 billion, it was bought by Virgin for £747 million. Cost the UK tax payer £400 million. So yes you have to account for the debt on the banks books.

For UK banks, yes. As London, Europe's financial mecca, can afford to print the pound if it comes to worse case. Or it could keep the pound stable and buy dollars. When you have the power of the printing press you are flexible in what you can do. The Euro zone does not have the flexibility the US or UK have.

It really depends on what side of the fence you are on. It's a good thing to me as it forces the EU to accept the reality of failure a single currency for 17 different economies and countries does to everybody. Germany is different then Ireland, Ireland is different then Greece and so on.

 

They cut the fish from fish and chips.

Btw, it seems there is something on your shoulder.

It looks like a fish.

 

You've come out with an huge amount of BS in the past, but this takes the biscuit.

 

Leffe, you keep on insisting to calling me names or to be rather unfriendly...

Why, if I may ask?!

All I do is to speak the truth, Leffe...

Hello?! PiS! Now all sorts of bells and alarms are ought to go off!

 

@Leffe

You speak Dutch already, or understand to a reasonable level?

If so, I can give you a link to a very interesting interview conducted friday with chairman of EPP, Wilfried Martens (former Belgian PM).

 

I didn't call you a name. I said that comparing UK conservatives to these groups is some of the worst BS you've ever come out with. And I say this as someone who does not in any way support the Tories.

Why do you attack groups, countries and individuals who don't agree with your view of Federal Europe?

 

Leffe, from your comment I was let to believe that you said I'm posting BS 24/7.

And, I was not comparing British Conservatives with these groups -- I said they shared the same bed, which is 100% factual.