Discussion in 'United States' started by Kyklos, Nov 24, 2019.
The vote rigging in the recent election is what led to Morales' ouster.
Ah your right. I missed that step. Thanks
“While ignorant and dishonest socialists and communists would have us believe that there is only one form of socialism, there actually have been many different forms of it over the years, and National Socialism is one of them.”
Actually, socialism and communism can be traced back to the early Christians (my historical summary). Yes, there are many forms of socialism like there are many forms of democracy. However, because a country calls itself democratic doesn’t mean it is like Kim Jong-Un’s “Democratic People's Republic of Korea.” In fact, way before the Italian Fascists, Marx’s entire work is a response to the “Utopian Socialists” such as Henri de Saint-Simon, Charles Fourier, Étienne Cabet and Robert Owen. Marx’s criticism was that the utopian socialists only said that capitalism is bad, but could not explain why it was bad. Engels wrote, “Socialism, Utopian and Scientific”(1876).
“Clearly, the fascist emphasis on anti-individualism and State control is what characterizes fascists as socialists, collectivists and Leftists.”
You forgot to include the Corporate Industrial State that as anti-individualist, and collectivist than any authoritarian society. The competitive corporation is in fact a highly planned enterprise as much as any Soviet-type economy. Even the Marxist Herbert Marcuse called it a "third rate welfare state" when he was hired by the OSS, now the CIA, in the 1950s to study Russia. They didn't like his conclusion that Russia would collapse in 40 years. In fact, the two bureaucratic organizations—I think you used the term “collectivity” in a past discussion—have more similarities than differences. This conclusion was very upsetting to the American High Priests of Economics. Corporations are “private tyrannies.”
The Capitalists called Galbraith a “socialist” and the socialists call him a “capitalist.” When both camps are upset, he must be on to something. Much of what is called the evils of Capitalism and Socialism are really the shared evils of bureaucracies—a common trait of these organizational collectives. The unemployment line is just as miserable as the bread line. Galbraith’s main point is that organizational planning is the converging element in these two systems.
“Furthermore, labeling Nazis "right-wing" merely on account of their nationalism, racism and anti-semitism doesn't differentiate them from many of their "progressive" fellow travelers, past and present.”
I think you got your talon’s crossed. The persons mentioned (Ford, Lindbergh, Hearst, to name a few) considered themselves as Nazi’s and were recognized as such by the Nazi’s themselves—it’s not just us pointing it out and applying an arbitrary label. And after WWII none of them returned their Nazi metals. In fact, GM and IBM complained that their factories in Nazi Germany were bombed by the US to stop Nazi production and demanded monetary compensation that they received!
Actually, the foundations of socialism and communism can be traced even further back to Plato and Ancient Greece. Of course, some people trace them back to primitive communities but that's obviously a stretch.
As for the early Christians, Oxford scholar Larry Siedentop wrote a brilliant book/polemic five years ago Inventing the Individual: The Origins of Western Liberalism wherein he credits Jesus and Paul with laying the groundwork for individualism, not socialism and communism:
After reading his argument, which he supports at length, I agree with him. On the other hand, I've found the arguments of those who contend otherwise unconvincing.
True, but that doesn't refute the fact that the German National Socialists were socialists and considered themselves socialists. As I pointed out earlier, Hitler and his National Socialist cronies figured out a way to implement their own brand of socialism in an unconventional sense, i.e., without abolishing private property and enterprise. What they realized is that control could be imposed without direct State ownership. This is a lesson that contemporary "progressives" have learned, as well.
Well, none of them - including Marx - were scientists. They were all utopians and they all have failed accordingly. As for capitalism, it is a human construct so it will never be perfect, however most of its failings, in my opinion, are actually the failings of human beings. Socialism has been no less immune from Man's shortcomings than capitalism - in fact, the case can easily be made that socialism and communism make them even worse.
I didn't forget anything. The "Corporate Industrial State" is a fictitious construct.
LOL - "Corporations are "private tyrannies". That's funny and it reminds me of something P.J. O'Rourke once said:
“The free market is ugly and stupid, like going to the mall; the unfree market is just as ugly and just as stupid, except there is nothing in the mall and if you don't go there they shoot you.”
BTW, I've never used the term "collectivity". You must have me confused with someone else.
No, you missed my point, which is that other socialists, communists and so-called "progressives" have been nationalist, racist and anti-semitic, so these aren't qualities that are unique to the Nazis.
I'll also point out something else that is not unique to the German National Socialists and that is attacks on other socialists and communists. Lenin, Stalin and Mao were notorious for killing other socialists and communists and they probably murdered and imprisoned far more than the Nazis did.
US Mainstream Media is lying about Bolivian Coup, and will lie about the 2020 election winner.
Sowing distrust of government & a free press, is the first step taken by any wannabe despot.
Does Trump know this? His entire campaign is based on the theme of fake news. I think you have a blind spot.
The brutality carried out on the edges of the American Empire will eventually come back home and be fully used against the American people.
Massacres happening in Bolivia now. Mass arrests on going. Drones surveillance on the entire population. Thousands hunted and disappeared. It looks like a Chilean style reign of terror. Max Blumenthal and Ben Norton speak with journalist Wyatt Reed, who is reporting on the ground in Bolivia after a US-backed far-right military coup against democratically elected leftist President Evo Morales. He describes the bloody repression of Indigenous protesters and the state of resistance.
And you are correct, no argument in your quote, just declarations.
That is not true. Actual Socialists were thrown out of Nazi party. One example;
Hitler used words like "socialism" to attract a mass audience. Hitler knew nothing of economics--it bored him to dead-- and in fact Mein Kampf has almost no economic theory or plan. He though economics would take care of itself like the NeoLiberal economists of today.
No True Scotsman Fallacy.
I detect an ideological assumption about “science” here. I suspect you mean the science of physics (empirical positivistic materialism) since you didn’t provide a definition as Engels has in his work. “Science” does not have one meaning throughout the history of Western Civilization. “Science” has meant the difference between Essence vs. Existence, and Systematic as opposed to positivistic, Idealisms vs. Positivisms. Another rational systematic methodology is required for the object of inquiry.
Einstein has tried to politely tell us;
Agreed,therefore, a corporation is not a person with civil rights.
Talon quoted me in reply…
An excellent definition from Noam Chomsky.
Dr. Paxton is a world famous expert on fascism and has authored “The Anatomy of Fascism(2024).” Dr. Paxton typically is very reluctant to name contemporary political movements “fascist.” Paxton rejects other criteria for determining any political group, state, or movement fascist like the “fascist minimum” model used by Dr. Lawrence Britt, a political scientist, who listed 14 characteristics common to fascist regimes. Paxton rejects this method as too static. Paxton also rejects an “intentionalist” explanation of fascist dictatorship that focuses on the dictator’s will and personality. Paxton does not even consider Imperial Japan as fascist and instead calls it “an expansionist military dictatorship” (Robert O. Paxton, Anatomy of Fascism, 2005, Vintage Books, p. 200). Paxton rejects Spain’s General Francisco Franco as fascist and calls it a traditional form of dictatorship lacking the emotional commitment to fascism (Ibid., p. 157). I would say these historical examples are “close enough” because Paxton is too strict applying his criteria in my opinion.
Paxton puts forward the following formal definition of fascism:
What interests me most about Paxton’s analysis it the “collaboration with Traditional elites.” He wrote about this power sharing,
I don’t much like the body count method of determining truth and rationality. It gets depressing when counting the dead in the history of Christianity—you know--like now with the Bolivian Indians.
Lets play a little game called fill in the blank:
National ___________ German Workers' Party.
The rest of your post, simply put, lacks merit.
We were not building weapons for our sworn enemy
You wouldnt arm your greatest foe with weapons, right?
Unless you can offer up some evidence to support this I will write it off as a conspiracy theory. Seems sketchy on logistics alone, how wear these massive tanks transported? And how did our military not know this was going on?
Quick question: Fascism was born from what ideology?
Nothing screams socialist more clearly than National Socialist German Workers' Party
Oh. Actually, the foundations of individualism can be traced even further back to Plato and Ancient Greece. Specifically, to Socrates that goes into the marketplace and asks questions (Negative philosophy, or Irony, not positivism) about common beliefs and traditions which get him executed. As in the myth of Antigone by Sophocles. Antigone is ordered by the King Creon to not bury her treasonous brother killed in a coup. She dares to defy the King’s order because of the family obligation to bury one’s family members. She symbolically throws a handful of dirt on her brother’s decaying body and is arrested. Here is a better summary:
Kierkegaard, Hegel and the Individual
At 12 minutes, 32 sec. in video.
Nothing screams democracy more clearly than Kim Jong-Un’s “Democratic People's Republic of Korea.”--Reductio Ad Absurdum.
Placing Hitler into a distinct right or left spectrum never really works well because he was a very situational dictator, one who drew his exact policies from the political and international situation at the time and doesn't really bear a lot of similarity to today, especially the German political scene which is radically different from American political standards.
Thus, it is fundamentally important to the discussion of the Nazi ideology to understand the framework by which "Prussian Socialism" was formed; it was an ideology that rejected the centerpiece of most Marxist-derived groups, the framing of the world in terms of class conflict, instead opting for a nationality and Volk (people) centered standard, very similar to the Fascist race-based conflict that would define that ideology. So Prussian Socialism was socialism without class conflict, egalitarianism without internationalism, and collectivity without the abolition of private property. As you can see, the Prussian Socialism that would form the bedrock for National Socialism bore little resemblance to the traditional views we hold on leftist ideologies like Marxism, communism, and socialism itself.
But ultimately, its collectivism, which is a direct trait shared by all the other "isms" in other words, at it's very core it is government control over the people, and diametrically opposed to individualism. With individualism the people get to chose who represents us, who runs the nation. A nation built ( a constitutional representative republic, for example) with a focus on the individual and protection for the minority. This nation was founded on conservative principles to be a nation for ALL walks of life and ALL religions and ALL are equal under the law. ALL of these principles were despised by Hitler when you study and consider the gravity of his actions.
Having said that, lets look at some quotes from Hitler:
"Germany's economic policy is conducted exclusively in accordance with the interests of the German people. In this respect I am a fanatical socialist, one who has ever in mind the interests of all his people. I am not the slave of a few international banking syndicates. I am under no obligation to any capitalist group. I sprang from the German people. My Movement, our Movement, is a German people's Movement, and it is only to this German people that we are obligated."
"We explained to the nation that it was madness to wage internal economic wars between the various classes, in which they all perish together.
Of course, a fundamental social principle was necessary to achieve this. It is today no longer possible to build up a state on a capitalistic basis. The peoples eventually begin to stir. The awakening of the peoples cannot be prevented by wars. On the contrary, war will only hasten it. Such states will be ruined by financial catastrophes which will destroy the foundations of their own former financial policy."
"In the midst of this people, forming its very core, is the National Socialist Movement which began its existence in this room 21 years ago,-this Movement the likes of which does not exist in the democratic countries, this Movement whose only pendant is fascism. Nation and army, party and state are today one indivisible whole. No power in the world can loosen what is so firmly welded together. Only fools can imagine that the year 1918 can be repeated."
Nazi ideology = Government control over the people (collectivism)
Republican ideology = People's control over government (individualism)
Polar opposites, you see. And generally speaking, liberals aim towards bigger government and conservatives stand for a very lean government. We can see where the evolution of Nazi ideology goes from there...
Okay, I'll see if I can find a bunch of propaganda speeches from Kim Jong-un about democracy instead of looking at what he is actually doing. The definition of democracy must have some relation to reality. For example: "Conservatives stand for very lean government and free markets." That is why the US Government pushed by Corporate Wall Street bailed out Wall Street with $29 Trillion dollars. Yes, our wallets are very lean indeed.
just guessin, cancelling cable didnt solve anything did it.
Cable TV did not get my money for the last 19 years--about $20,000 dollars! LOL!. So they can suck it.
Actually, there is more to the story than that. Lets add some context:
As the Soviet Union expanded its influence into Eastern Europe in the early 1940s, Moscow created the idea of “people’s democracies” in order to distinguish new Leninist republics from previous bourgeois regimes, but at the same time reaffirming the Soviet Union’s superiority in socialist construction and as the center of the world communist movement. Soviet satellites such as Macedonia, Romania and Bulgaria became known as “people’s democracies” and officially “people’s republics.”
The ‘people’s democracy theory,’ created by the Soviet ideologues in the early 1940s, implied that those (newly independent) countries were going through a lengthy transition from capitalist or even colonial and semi-feudal societies to socialist societies.
Obviously ‘democracy’ in this context does not mean what we in the non-communist world think it is – contested elections, multiple parties, etc. – but rather reflects the claim that these party-states represent ‘the people,’ as opposed to oppressive feudal or capitalist systems.
And we should also note, this discussion is in reference to political parties, not nation state naming conventions. Political parties are generally descriptive by name and the term Nazi is no different.
Lets break down the "workers party" portion of National Socialist German Workers' Party
Generally speaking, this phrase is used exclusively by socialist and/or communist nations. You simply do not see this in use (if ever) by the right wing.
So far thats two references to socialism in the Party name alone!
true, however you stated that you canceled cable because of the mainstream media, yet you're well versed on everything mainstream media reports on, ergo cancelling cable didnt work...
anywho, msm is aimed at the weak minded folk & is pure entertainment for the rest of us...
Actually, a missed that whole two year Russia investigation thing except for some reports on Progressive sites. Ergo, I am still informed without paying the Trump whores at Fox News, and the rest of the mostly garbage on cable TV. But Hey! Thank you for being so concerned about my purity of mind and quality of life. You are such a good person! Now go pull someone's fingernails out, like they are doing to Catholic Indigenous Bolivians now.
Well sure, if you want higher taxes and food stamps vote democrat.
And this is also why Donald Trump put America back to work. Lowest unemployment rate in US history! Lowest unemployment rate for blacks and minorities in US history! Dow Jones is breaking records on a near daily basis! Fixed trade deals, a $50 billion trade deal with China is incoming. If the democrats would stop slobbering over impeachment our nation could actually be getting a lot done. USMCA for example, would create 200,000 jobs right out of the gate. But no, the do nothing democrats dont give a damn about the American people. Which is totally obvious because they have accomplished ZERO for the nation since Trump took office. Unbelievable! Dont even get me started in democratically controlled cities! And did I mention? Tax cuts, Trump is cutting taxes! And leaning out the government. Exactly what he said he would do before taking office.
Who is fixing our nation? Donald Trump (conservative) republican (pro-life)
Who is trying to destroy our nation? Barack Obama (liberal) democrat (pro-death)
So vote democrat if you want to see our nation overrun by the globalists and their minion.
It's funny how our "progressive" friends always try to tap dance around that. In fact, they've made such a habit of it that the late great Jean-François Revel addressed it at length in his final book Last Exit to Utopia: The Survival of Socialism in a Post-Soviet Era.
Good morning. The world-wide fascist uprising is continuing with our old friends in Chile beating, torturing, murdering any persons that are not like themselves. Chilean Photojournalist Albertina Martínez Burgos was stabbed and beaten to death in Santiago. Her recent photographs of the ongoing massive demonstrations against Chilean President Sebastián Piñera have also been stolen.
All of this is happening because the United States government and Trump has signaled that it is okay to murder any dissenters. Much like W. Bush jr. Iraq, Trump is opening the Gates of Hell upon all the world.
The Chilean police are routinely shooting protesters in the eye. This has happened in the United States to innocent bystander Victoria Snelgrove, a 21-year-old Boston Emerson College journalism student at Finway Park in 2004. She died after an exploding projectile entered her eye.
I know the Rodeo Clown act of rotating bloggers that just try to waste time by repeating the same defeated arguments over and over again. So guys don't fall for the coordinated effort to post political e-mail campaign literature for you to waste time refuting. It's not a real conversation. Rational debate and communication is not their goal.
Hey, Merc. You need to contact Trump and warn him of a possible "Jew Cabal" because one of his Christian Pastors, Rick Wiles, is claiming the Jews are trying to destroy him! It's unbelievable. What a nut case that Trump guy is. Who could so be stupid to support this anti-Semite! You cannot be a Christian and be a anti-Semite at the same time! So why are the Christians supporting Trump?
You got to see the video warning of a "Jew Coup."
‘Christian’ Pastor: Impeach Trump Movement Part Of A 'Jew Coup'
Florida Pastor Rick Wiles claims ‘Jewish cabal’ aims to overthrow Trump.
Separate names with a comma.