What Did You Really Think Would Happen With Israel?

The Atlantic Monthly
July 1920

Zionist Aspirations in Palestine
by Anstruther Mackay

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/bookauth/zionism/mackay.htm

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The French let them go after the Suez Crisis and the Lavon Affair ..

 

Good thing for the Jews he wasn't in charge of the UN in '48.

 

The land was theirs. God gave it to them. They have had an uninterrupted presence in the area now known as Israel, for more than 3,500 years or more. They have JUST as much right to own the land as the Muslims.

 

So have the Arabs.........

They claim God gave them Palestine.

 

It seems like they believe they only have a right to it.

Hard to say. When the Romans's mention the area, they call it Palestine. They refer to the Jews in it, but this doesn't mean that it was exclusively Jewish. It just means they were the ones giving the Romans the most trouble. It could be implied that they had the dominant presence in the area at the time.

But...I don't think it's a good case that simply because you were there before a people means you have the right to come back. It that's the case, the entire worlds gonna have to shuffle it's deck.

 

You can't mix the two.

The ARABS claim Allah gave it to them?

No, it is the MUSLIMS who claim this.

And on what basis do the Muslims claim Israel?

On the basis that it is where Mohammad took a disputed night journey.

But who owned the land before and even after he was born?

Who populated the area at that period in time?


The Jews have AT LEAST as much right to the land as the Muslims.

 

Might seem that way but one has to remember that in '48 when offered a nation of their own Arabs felt that way so much so that they massed every military asset they could get to kill evey last Jew so they could have all the land to themselves. I don't see Jews doing that now so no, doesn't seem that way at all considering they could kill every last Palestinian if they wished to and yet - - - don't.

And if they called it Lilliput then the Arabs would now be called Lilliputians.

They had a king called Herod who resided over Judea which was a client nation under Roman occupation so yes they did have a presence and a country of sorts.

It's not and neither is simply being there in this case as the world has stated when seeing hundreds of thousands of people at odds to create two nations. One refused altogether and the other accepted and ran with the idea.

 

It is my belief, subject to my learning more facts that might change my view, that the Jews have AT LEAST as much right to the land as the Arabs. And more right to it than the Muslims.

The Muslims' presence in the area began with the alien arrival of Muhammad onto the scene from Mecca.

By what right does he (and his followers unto this very day) claim anything???

 

Arab Jews, yes; European Jews, no.

 

In your mind but to the UN, they saw two million bodies of differing beliefs and didn't feel the need to dissect it into alphabetical order or sects other than Arabs and Jews.

 

The UN acted against its own tenets. In the end, politics won the day.

 

And accepted Israel as a country and nation of planet earth.

 

Go troll elsewhere.

 

I would say the same of you after that silly post where you implied the UN did wrong by allowing two large groups of people to create two nations rather than continue civil war.

Troll elsewhere unless you are for civil war in which case stick around so we can ridicule you a bit.

 

This is the very first time I have ever been given reason to pause and think about my stance on Israel.

Congratulations.

So, would that mean the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees should not be given the right of return?

After all, the European Jews were only coming back home to where they first started...just like the Paestinian refugees.

 

Muslims don't claim God gave the land to them.. but Arabs were there long before Islam.

 

And as the world wide legal authority the UN was within its legal rights to establish Israel as a sovereign state.

By resisting this authority the so-called Palestinians are violating the "law of the land" by denying Israel's sovereignty.

 

This is disputable. Unless you consider the Arabian Palestinians unamimous liars, there was aggressive land gabs by the Israeli citizens and/or army where they would dispossess local Arabs of their houses and push them off to either destroy and rebuild or hand property to Jewish people. The resultant refugees began to offend the other Arab nations. Politically, how that situation was used is also debatable. But as far as people are concerned, I think it was taken with great offense.

Hmmm...this sounds like an oversimplification. Not that it isn't true, but it doesn't have context. It seems to fall into the perceived attack-defense storyline, but we tend to see that if you follow the story back, the real instigation of the fight is somewhat mor murkier and the fist physical blow is often not the damning factor for the results that follow. I'll try to look into it, but I remember reading a book by an Israeli journalist that said as much. That the Arab retaliation was a retaliation against offenses done to Arab's by Israeli's. The political motivations and incentives of an attack, of course, factor in, but that was the basis. Kind of like 9/11 and the second Gulf War.

Everyone is alien at some time or another. I don't really see anyone as having a right to the land. The ancient Israeli's conquered the locals they found in the area as well before they got there- if that or any part of the Bible is to be believed. Along those lines, the Israeli's do not have a right either, unless you mean it is a right by conquest. Then that would simply mean the strongest proclaim the rights to whatever they can take.

I get the feeling that the whle "right" thing seems to be implying a "divine right", which is disturbing to hear. On one level, while I disagree with the formation of Israel on some grounds, many other nations were formed the same way so it's hardly worth complaining about. The current order of the world was set into place by force. That's just the way it is. But then you have to reconsider everything and remember that under all the florid speeches, talks, and justifications, the only thing that decides anything is more often force, and that's whats being exchanged in that area, and other areas of the world.

 

What "law of the land"?

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LOLOL.. Arabs were in Palestine LONG before Islam.

 

Good point

There was a focus on the religion rather than the people, wasn't there? But....then again...did Arabia exist back then?

Makes me think of another question...the distinction between the actual Hebrews and the present day Jews? I know they claim to be descended from them, but wild claims have been made by a variety of people overtime.

 

To me.. anyone who claims they are Jewish.. are Jewish. But that is hardly an excuse for what they have done.

 

I think a portion of Palestinian refugees should be given the right to return. Obviously all of them can't be expected to return.

The Palestinian refugees were expelled from their lands some 60 years ago. European Jews have no connection to the land whatsoever. I don't care that some Jews lived in the region two millennium ago.

 

The UK/US joint committee who were sent to investigate things on the ground, advised no state come about at that time as all that would happen was that they would be in continuous war. This has been shown to be the truth. The UN vote only came about because of bribery/blackmail by the US and guilt over the holocaust and did not go through to the end. The UN did not 'grant' Israel as a state. It suggested a two state solution which offered more to the Jews than the Arabs and which the Arabs understandably thought was unfair.

 

That is true but they did need a safe place to live as equals. Western Nations which were considered safe ought to have opened their doors for immigration.

 

Because one didn't want to be a country.

Indeed Bolivia, Brazil, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Guatemala, Haiti, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela, Iceland, Australia, New Zealand, Liberia, South Africa and the Philippines had so so much pent up guilt.

Yes, the Negev was prime land compared with developed land. I believe area was increased to make up for lack of quality.