I think everyone is aware of that.. Fact remains that Herodotus called it Syria Palestine 400 years BEFORE the first century AD. And, according to the Old Testament there were Arabs in Jerusalem after the Babylonian exile.
"Palestinians" are the bigger group that include Christians, Jews, Druze and Samaritans, NOT just the Palestinian Arabs that you refer to for the sake of "who holds right over the land", To suggest that bigger group is decendant of ancient natives is logical but to suggest the Arabs of today are NOT the Arabs of old but in fact JEWS of old - require a bit more evidance IMO, mainly because they themselves reject your claims.
I think that's true.. That Palestinians ancestry includes Jewish farmers who stayed on in Palestine and converted to Christianity and later to Islam. Ben Gurion believed that to be true.
Could be, I tend to belive some of them are myself but I dont know of any proof to that, like I said they deny it themselves.
IMO - wiki is as reliable as Zionist/Israeli Ministry of Information's Hasbara handbook . etc. (wink) Not entirely true : - Arabs are not a singular people. Origins are complex and intermingled with many peoples and lines. According to tradition, true Arabs are descendants of Abraham and his son Ishmael and prior to the 20th century, “Arab” designated the Bedouin, tribal-based society of the Arabian desert, which is the birthplace of Arabic. Other Arabs are ethnic groups that have been extant in their lands of origin for millennia. Modern Arab nationalism (like Zionist/Jewish nationalism) is a product of 19th- and 20th-century developments and has no prior historical basis. Before the rise of nationalism, most Arabic-speakers identified themselves as members of a particular family or tribe; as residents of a village, town, or region; as Muslims, Christians, or Jews; or as subjects of large political entities such as the Ottoman empire. Historians generally agree that the ancient Semitic peoples (Assyrians, Aramaeans, Canaanites (including the Phoenicians and Hebrews) and, later, the Arabs themselves) migrated into the area of the Fertile Crescent. Arab came after successive crises of overpopulation in the Arabian Peninsula beginning in the third millennium BC and ending with the Muslim conquests of the 7th century AD. These peoples spoke languages based on similar linguistic structures, and the modern Semitic languages of Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic and Amharic (the language of Ethiopia) maintain important similarities. Rubbish - utter Dreck . no matter what word you choose to describe it, the end result wasthe same. The invading Hebrew tribes arrived with the intention to steal the land of Canaan, claiming that their god promised it to them. The land of Canaan was never "a land without a people for a people without a land" as was articulated by some early Zionists. Unlike you + Zionists , I doubt you'd find anyone here in Britain who'd deny any crimes committed during the building of the British Empire, including other Europeans, i.e. French/Spanish/Dutch/German/Portugues etc. Crafty deflection tactics , what ? In the 21th century. the UK and the US went to war against Al Qaeda and while they were fighting against that terror organization, they kill an innocent people. So did that were a war or a genocide? Another Stupid comparison !. There are several explanations /reasons, regime changes etc., Stealing the land or claiming a god promised the land to them was certainly not used as justification. ----- .....
A lot of the Negev Bedouin have some small customs that are Jewish and claim Jewish ancestry .. I think some people forget that there were Arabs long before the advent of Islam.. And of course there are the ancient Arab legends about Abraham and Ishmael building an alter in what is now called Mecca... and that mother Eve is buried in Jeddah. I don't put a lot of stock in those old legends.... but they say that the Arabs did worship Abraham and forgot, drifting away into paganism and into what they call the "time of the ignorance".. At least in Muhammed's first sermons he preached.. "I cannot save you. Save yourselves. Return to the God of Abraham."
I know that the "Palestinians" are not the desendens from the Philistines!! I already wrote that here (in this forum) several of times. Furtheremore, dont you forget that there are Arabs in Israel that consider themselves the desendens of the Philistines, and they continue to say that because of that falsely claim they have the full right over this land and the Jews dont have it. The first Arabs that were came to the Land of Israel in the 7th century were Bedouin, and that is a fact, a historical fact. BUT I wrote in my comment earlier that the name "Arabs" in the ancient times have been refered to nomads! and nomads only!! and that according to Assyrian, Hebrew and Arabian texts. Thats what I wrote to you, that Wiki is not a relaible source to relay on, but yet you are continuing to Copy-Paste from that site. The Arabs that came to the Land of Israel in 634 AD were bedouin from Saudi Arabia, they were like an army, the army of Mohammad and according to history they were an army like group that murdered alot of people and theft property from people across the Middle East. Furtheremore according to the Quran, Muhammad wrote there (he didnt know writing or reading but let us him have it) that because the Jews didnt want to convert to Islam, and the "Skull texs" that the Arabs of Muhammad brought upon all of those who werent part of the Islam to force them to convert and when the Jews didnt want to convert he ordered the Arabs to kill Jews like it was "the word of god" or as we all know it today as the "jihad", but if you would read before the order to kill Jews you would see that Muhammad loved the Jews and let them to fullfil their religion, all of the radicls Islamists are forgeting those days. Like Hamas. The Arabs dont belong to singuler group. of course, there is alot of Arabs. lie Egyptean Arabs, Saudi Arabs, Jordanian Arabs etc. For exemple to Abu-Mazan and his sons have a Jordanian passport and also they were take part of the elections of 2004 in Jordan, so the leader of the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza want their own country but in the other hand he pledge alidgence to Jordan- go figure. Furtheremore, the majority of the Arabs in Gaza want Egypt to welcome them into Egypt, or in other words, to anax Gaza into Egypt, but Egypt dont want to. So once again, how can it be that those Egyptean group (most of the family names in Gaza is Al Masri which means that they are Egyptean) want a country that never was existed and in one hand to be anaxed to Egypt and in other hand they want their own country- go figure. All of the Semitic peoples werent migrated to area of the Fartile Crescent. And this is according to a historian I know alot of times, he studies about the history of the Land of Israel. The Arabs have many languages! there is Saudian Arabic, Egyptean Arabic, Syrian Arabic etc. which means that the group that came to the Land of Israel and the Arabs in the West Bank, Gaza and Israel today are the decendens of those, had alot of languages and they werent a single language!! Furthremore, see what I wrote to you about Abu-Mazen and the Gazen people. If your only source about the ancient times are the bible, so please so me where in the Bible it is describe the word "Genocide". The Binle describes alot of battles and alot of wars- wars are not genocide!! The Israelites didnt came to Cna'an to steal it but to live there, in the ancient times there was alot of places that werent populated and in the ancient times werent belong to anyone, the Israelites just came to Cna'an to live there after Exudos. The wars that is describing in the Bible between the Israelites and other peoples was because those people, like Midian, were attacked them when the Exudos happened, and it is also describes in the Bible- your only source BTW. I would never denied anything that Israel did, mostly the bad things!! and i would be the first one to rise against Israel if I think the actions they did were too harse or not right. And I already rised against Israel in many subjects that didnt seems to me right. I'm not a hipocryte, dont worry. Stupid comparison? how? Israel fought and still fighting against a terror group- Hamas, and the US and the UK fought against a terror group, but yet not the US or the UK were carefull with their attacks like the IDF!! did the American army or the British declared to Al Qaeda where their next location they would bombed? I dont think so, did them cancelled attacks because there was too much innocent populition? I dont think so. What the IDF are doing and did with the war against Hamas no other army did in the history of warfare and still people are letting the false propaganda, but yet very seccessive, of Hamas to lead them to hate Israel by distortion or reality and to post pictures from the genocide that Assad is doing to his people, or post pictures from Iraq and from the actions of ISIS. Stop with the stupid calim that "god promised the land to the Jews". an imaginary figure cant promise anything!! but there is a historical claims about the right of the Jews over the Land of Israel. Of course the Arabs can live in the Land of Israel as well, and they are living the full rights in Israel.
What "historical rights " ? " Several more honest Jews admit that they are not the descendants of the Ancient Israelites in their writings. Under the heading of "A brief History of the Terms for Jew" in the 1980 Jewish Almanac is the following: "Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a Jew or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew." (1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3) Academic American Encyclopedia (1985): "Ashkenazim, the Ashkenazim are one of the two major divisions of the Jews, the other being the Shephardim." Encyclopedia Americana (1985): "Ashkenazim, the Ashkenazim are the Jews whose ancestors lived in German lands...it was among Ashkenazi Jews that the idea of political Zionism emerged, leading ultimately to the establishment of the state of Israel... In the late 1960s, Ashkenazi Jews numbered some 11 million, about 84 percent of the world Jewish population." ---Most of the Jews in Israel are not the original Jews of the Bible, but people who converted to the Jewish religion. Most of the Jews in Israel are descended from people in countries such as Germany, Georgia, Ukraine, Yemen, and Morocco who were not originally Jewish. The Palestinians are most likely the original Jews. Schlomo Sand, professor of history at Tel Aviv university, wrote about the Zionist myth at Le Monde Diplomatique, in September 2008. (Zionist nationalist myth of enforced exile: Israel deliberately forgets its history) Among the points made by Professor Sand: 1. In 70 AD, the Jews were allegedly exiled and went to live in countries such as Yemen, Morocco, Spain, Germany, Poland and Russia. 2. At the end of the 19th century, people claiming to be Jews began to talk about setting up a Jewish state. 3. Is the Bible historically accurate? The first modern Jewish historians, such as Isaak Markus Jost (1793-1860) and Leopold Zunz (1794-1886), did not think so. They saw the stories of the Old Testament as being useful parables. 4. During the 1980s there were new discoveries in archaeology. The story of the 13th century BC exodus was shown to be a myth. Moses could not have led the Hebrews out of Egypt into the Promised Land, because the Promised land was Egyptian territory at the time. The archaeologists say there is no trace of either a slave revolt against the Egyptian empire or of a sudden conquest of Canaan by outsiders. Nor is there any trace or memory of the Biblical kingdom of David and Solomon. 5. The Kingdom of Israel was a tiny little place. 6. Were the Jews exiled in 70 AD? The Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. The Jewish population of Judea continued to live on their lands after 70AD. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority became Moslems during the 7th century. Most Zionist thinkers were aware of this. Yitzhak Ben Zvi, later president of Israel, and David Ben Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, accepted it. Both stated on several occasions that the Palestinians were the descendants of the Jewish inhabitants of ancient Judea. So, the Palestinians are the real Jews. 7. So, what about the people in Europe and elsewhere who claimed to be Jews? From the 2nd century BC onwards, many people were forcibly converted to the Jewish religion. Many Europeans, Africans and Asians were converted to Judaism. For example, in the 1st century AD, in Kurdistan, there was the Jewish kingdom of Adiabene. In the 5th century, in Yemen, a Jewish kingdom emerged. Arab chronicles tell of North African berber tribes becoming Jewish, during the 7th century. 8. In the 8th century, the most important mass conversion took place. This was in the huge Khazar kingdom between the Black and Caspian seas. Judaism spread from the Caucasus into the Ukraine, then into Eastern Europe, and on to Germany. The Yiddish culture of Europe involved people who had converted to the Jewish religion. 9. The Israeli forces who seized Jerusalem in 1967 may have been descendents of Germans, Yemenis, Berbers or Khazars. ~~~ At Haaretz, on 21 March 2008, Ofri Ilani wote about shattering a 'national mythology'. Shattering a 'national mythology' - Haaretz - Israel News Ilani refers to Dahia al-Kahina, a leader of the Berbers in the Aures Mountains. Al-Kahina was the daughter of a Berber tribe that had converted to Judaism. According to the Tel Aviv University historian, Prof. Shlomo Sand, author of "Matai ve'ech humtza ha'am hayehudi?" ("When and How the Jewish People Was Invented?"), the queen's tribe and other local tribes are the main sources from which Spanish Jewry sprang. ---- Its not my claim , its what Zionist Jews claim. Its the foundation of Zionism . Read and learn : "The concept of homeland is one of the most amazing and also, perhaps, one of the most ruinous of the modern era, says Prof. Shlomo Sand. In his new book, When and How Was the Land of Israel Invented? ‏(Kineret, Zmora-Bitan Dvir, Hebrew‏, Sand examines the attitude of the Zionist movement toward that territory since its inception. More particularly, he is out to discover how Zionism adopted the idea of the historic right to that land, and consolidated an ethos based on the memory of an ancient people whose ancestors were Hebrews who lived in the Kingdom of Judah in the First and Second Temple periods. According to Sand, the Land of Israel was not the historic homeland of the Jewish people. Zionism plundered the religious term Land of Israel [Eretz Yisrael] and turned it into a geopolitical term, he says. The Land of Israel is not the homeland of the Jews. It becomes a homeland at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th − only upon the emergence of the Zionist movement. "The majority of the Jews of Eastern Europe, , are descendants of societies or of individuals who were converted to Judaism on European soil. For 2,000 years European Jews did not constitute a people and that only religion, belief and culture united them. # "The second myth that needed to be deconstructed is that the Land of Israel was always the property of the Jewish people and was promised it by God, who even gave his emissaries a deed of title, namely the Bible, which Zionism, despite its secularity, nationalized and turned into a salient work of history. "In this years Bible quiz, at Pesach, Minister of Education Gideon Saar said, We believe with all our heart that the actualization of settlement is a return to the land of our forefathers and that this right is intertwined with the Jewish peoples right to national security ... The patriarch Abraham and the patriarch Jacob came to Beit El and Hebron almost 4,000 years ago, long before they were the subjects of media interest. Eliezer Ben Yehuda, in his book Land of Israel, published in 1883 in Jerusalem, imagines the new land according to the borders of Moses Torah, from Wadi el-Arish to Sidon, from Sidon to Mount Hermon. They conjure up an imagined territory and take the Bible as proof of its existence. They do not believe in God, but they believe in the Promised Land. Before dying, God promised them the land. The first book that demarcates and analyzes borders was written in Yiddish, in 1918, by the two brilliant intellectuals of the period. Its title is The Land of Israel in the Past and the Present and the authors are Yitzhak Ben-Zvi and David Ben-Gurion. Their map of the Land of Israel encompasses both sides of the Jordan, includes the El Arish region and extends to Damascus. ----What about the Zionist Congresses? Herzl talked about a territory. There were no borders here in his period, because the country was part of the Ottoman Empire, and the word Palestine refers to an indeterminate region. The term Palestine-Land of Israel was devised by representatives of the British Mandate. The first Zionist Congresses used the term Palestine but did not yet talk about borders; the Bible resonates powerfully in the background. That is very important. What, after all, is Zionism? It is a secular movement that knows it has to exploit a myth and turns to the Bible. Zionist leaders from Max Nordau to Arthur Ruppin took the Bible and turned it into secular history. This should not be considered manipulation per se; they truly believed in that. Such creators of myths cling to the myths and need land and an eternal people; in their imagination they construct a national territory. Zionism, which thought big, appropriated the term Land of Israel from the Talmudic heritage and translated it into a national geopolitical term read whole article here : http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/maga...he-jewish-people-vents-again.premium-1.432371 According to JVL "The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on " God's promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; ---- --- .
So you say there arent historical rights over that land to the Jews? let us explore that assumption! 1. The Byzantine historian, Procopius, found Phoenician inscriptions in Africa which been carved into two monuments. In those Phoenician inscriptions was written: "We are, we escaped from the robber Joshua son of Noe". Those who were ascaped from Joshua were Hgrgshim, the ones who were described on the Talmud. Those inscriptions described the biblical human Joshua. 2. A research from Profesor Adam Zartel brought up that in the time of Joshua there were people with a unique culture that didnt eat pigs and didnt pray for sculptures. The profesor also found a unique type of ceramics that belong to people who came from Transjordan. in the inscriptions Al Amarna the kings of Cna'an asked the king of Egypt to help them fight against people who were named Habiru- those inscriptions were brought up by you, so I guess you are already know that and yet dont know of any historical right- interesting! 3. Profesor Adam Zartel found in Samaria, after a research of 21 years there, 200 villages from the 12th and the 13th century BC- the time when Moses said to the Israelites to enter the Land of Israel fron Transjordan. His research was published in "Haaretz" newspeper, a place which you are using alot. The Ceramics and the Architecture that found in those villages were unique from the Cna'anite's culture!! He was exemined the cooking pots that were found there, and discovered a chronological ranking to the east from West Coast- from Jordan Valley to Coast- a similar discrifination of what was written in the Bible. He also found on the eastern shoulder of Mount Ebal, surrounded by a compound wall area of ​​about 14 hectares. The pottery place on the site was founded in the late 13th century BC and existed as appropriate chronology 50 Year-classical conception of Israel entering Canaan. There was a large building platform-centered stone raised to ramp. Exectly what was written in the bible. Furtheremore!! in the Quran Muhammad discribed there his love to the Jews and said there that the Land of Israel is belong to the Jews- something that the Arabs nowadays is forgeting! so here is an interesting question: How can it be that people from the same religion contridact and ignoring what their prophet was saying? this is really really odd!! In the 90's. if I recall it right, a research for that assumption had been taking place. the reasearchers found that the Ashkenazim have a ganatic form that resemble to the Jewish Priests that were in the ancient times. Ok and...? How come? because the Arabs say that they are the decendens of Ishmael? So probably you forgot that when Muhammad discribed in the Quran "Sacrifice of Ishmael", this story is copyed from the bible, from the story of "Sacrifice of Iseec". Muhammad creted the quran after he took things and cultural behaviers from the Judaism (which he loved) and from the Babylonian mythology, Roman Mythology, Greek Mythology, Assyrian Mythology and so on. Like the stories in the Torah have been written by people that took alot of things from all kind of Mythologies. In 70 AD most of the Jews were exiled by the Roman empire, but probably you are forgeting the period of the Tanaim, that were orthodox Jews that lived mostly in Jerusalem and the Tanaim time were in the 1st and the 2nd century AD, which means that there were Jews even after the Romi exile. Furtheremore, the time of the amora, also an orthodox Jews, were in the until the 4th century AD, and then there were another period of time of those orthodox in the 6th century, and so on. 1. to Exudos there are evidences that it was fact! an archeaological facts! Im 1978 a pilgrime was found with the words: "Egypt, died, Shlomo, Paroah, Moses, water, and there god". This pilgrime was found in Saudi Arabia. In 1978 wheels covered with corals, in the southern side of Nuweiba's caost, a golden wheels were been found also. Those wheels were with 4, 6 and 8 rims. one of the 8 tims wheel that was found, took to be exemind by Nasif Muhammad Hassan, an Antique manager, and he declered that the wheel came from the 18th dinesty of ancient Egypt, period of time that the Israelites were there. The golden wheels that were ben found were belong to the Egyptean nobilty, which they were the only ones that used goldan wheels. In 1988, a group of researchers came back to Nuweiba's caost to exemine more, and they found more 6 rims wheels from the 18th dinesty of Egypt. AND that is answering you about the assumption of the profesor that there werent any new discoveries in archaeology. 2. Profesor Adam Zartel found in Samaria, after a research of 21 years there, 200 villages from the 12th and the 13th century BC- the time when Moses said to the Israelites to enter the Land of Israel fron Transjordan. His research was published in "Haaretz" newspeper, a place which you are using alot. The Ceramics and the Architecture that found in those villages were unique from the Cna'anite's culture!! He was exemined the cooking pots that were found there, and discovered a chronological ranking to the east from West Coast- from Jordan Valley to Coast- a similar discrifination of what was written in the Bible. He also found on the eastern shoulder of Mount Ebal, surrounded by a compound wall area of ​​about 14 hectares. The pottery place on the site was founded in the late 13th century BC and existed as appropriate chronology 50 Year-classical conception of Israel entering Canaan. There was a large building platform-centered stone raised to ramp. Exectly what was written in the bible. 3. There is archealogical evidences about Hibro slavery in Egypt. the ancient Yosef, the Israelite that were the right hand of Paroah, In the Sihail island was found an ancient Egyptean text that describe a man that was exectly what Yosef was, as he been discribed in the bible. In the book of Exodus it was written that "Yosef gave edvices to Paroah on how to deal with the seven years of famine", in the stome text was written that "Amhotf advised Pharaoh to do seven years of famine in Egypt." BTW- Amhotf is a name that mean Viceroy- a man that was the right hand to Pharaoh. In the bible was written that Pharaoh said to Yosef that no one in Egypt will do something unless he agreed to it, in the stone text was written "the most important man beside Pharaoh". In the bible was written that Pharoah said that Yosef will be incharge on his palace, and in the stone text was written the same: "the royal palace's manager". In the bible was written that Pharaoh said that Yosef was the most brilliant man alive, and in the stone text from Sihail island? "he is the mose wise man" In the bible was written that Pharoah gave to Yosef to protact the royal seal, and in the stone text: "the royal seal's keaper." In Laiden Museum there is a Papyrus that describe tha Hibru slavery as was written: "To devide seeds To Hibru" The kingdom of Israel was nota tiny place. In the site of Khirbet Qeiyafa, Prof. Yossi Garfinkel found a city that populated 500-600 peoples and dated by carbon-14, the most accurate dating there is today, to the time of the kingdom of david. This city is huge by amcient terms and it is just an evidence that the city in Khirbet Qeiyafa is part of a huge kingdom. that site is a one day walking to Jerusalem!! Dr. Eilat Mazar of the Hebrew University, one of the leading researchers about the biblical stories said: "the site clearly reflects a capable rule, which must rely on peripheral areas." Khirbet Qeiyafa is a peripheral area from the kingdom of David an Solomon. Garfinkel found 4 seeds and took them to be dated by carbon-14, the dating of those seeds was to the late 11th century BC until the early 10th century BC- the exect period of time which kingdom of David was there. BTW- Prof. Garfinkel discoverd another villages from the time of the kingdom of david in the city of Sha'arayim, which is located near the city of Rehovot, and Rehovot is located near the coast. The roman exiled the Jews to Rome to slavery! The Jews that stayed in the Land of Israel were forcely converted to Christianity when Crusaders came to the Land of Israel and then they started to hurt the Jews, and alot of them were forcely converted, as they forcely converted to Islam when Muhammad tried to convert the Jews to Islam by brought upon them the skull taxs, which was on those who werent Islamics, after Muhammad saw that the majority dont want to convert so he started to say that the Jews must to be killed as a Jihad, if you will read the Quran you will see that. The "Palestinians" are not the real Jews because of the simple fact that they are not the decendens of Ishmael, the "Sacrifice of Ishmael" wasnt happend! it was took from the Bible, one of many sources which Muhammad used to make the Quran, as "the Sactifice of Iseec", Muhammad just changed the name to Ishmael and the rest of the Arabs believed that lie until that day. Many Europeans, Africans and Asians were converted to Judaism. For example, in the 1st century AD, in Kurdistan, there was the Jewish kingdom of Adiabene. In the 5th century, in Yemen, a Jewish kingdom emerged. Arab chronicles tell of North African berber tribes becoming Jewish, during the 7th century.[/QUOTE] To forcely convert people according to Judaism is forhibitad! Jews. in Christianity there is Mִisִioֹn that let Christians to forcely convert people, the Islamics do it by killing people (like ISIS/Hamas). For your exemples- you dont show anything that could show the convertion to Judaism on those period of times as it happend forcely! you just mention a facts. not much. There wasnt any convertion in Khazar kingdom! because the sources that indicate that the Khazars convert to Judaism are doubtable so you cant relay on them! and that's not what i'm saying, but what Prof. Stampfer said. Well if you would look more arefully in "Haaretz" archive, you will find that kind of article that rejected what Prof. Shlomo Sand wrote in his book: Source: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/1.601287 So know you are trying to teach me about my religion? nice! BUT i know that it is not your claim, but od course you are incoureging it!! The claim that some Jews slaiming that "because god promised us this land we have to be here" it is a missrable joke, and not a good one!! an imaginary figure cant promise anything! if an imaginary figure as god could talk so it means that god have face, nose etc. .which means he could be a humen, and that assumpion about the claim of "the promise land" leading us that if god by the ones that incoureging "the promise land" claim so they are making god one of the pagen gods in the ancient history, and this is just wrong by Judaism. For that we have to thank to Chief Rabbinate of Israel that misleading people by thinking that this land is ours because "god promised it to us", but of course there are alot of archealogical evidances that would give the Jews the historical rights over this land, some od them I wrote to you in this replay. ok and....? ok and...? I mean in 1922 the British helped king Abdullah to established an Arab country in Transjordan, so the claims of Ben-Zvi and Ben Gurion that were 4 years before of that was ok because of the simple reason that in 1918 there was no countries in Damescus and in Ek Arish, in 1918 there was the Ottoman Empire in control on that cities, inspirations are all good, and that was all there was- inspirations, like nowadays the Arabs inspire for an Arab state, and like the inspirations of Ben-Zvi and Ben Gurion didnt fullfiled also the inspiration of the Arabs, and why? let's start by saying because Abu-Mazen said it clearly that he would not be part of peace talks with Israel just several days ago in the UN. Herzl was anti-Judaism until the trial of Dreyfus, when he was a journalist, and after he saw the treatment of the Europeans to Jews in Franch he started to talk about a territory for the Jews, first it was in Oganda. It is importent, indeed! but still the Zionist Congrasses by using the term "Palestine" as part of the name that Hadrian used when he called that land "Syria-Palestine". BTW- The 1st Zionist Congress in 1899 got premission from the Ottoman Empire to start moving Jews from Europe to Israel, so even then, in the late 19th century, when Jews came to the Land of Israel it was legitimate and right, not because they feel to but because of the premission they been given by the Turkes. I already replay to you about those claims, but i want to add onemore thing- the name that was been used before Hadrian changed it to Syria-Palestine was Judea. The term "The Land of Israel is from the Talmud, and...?
Zzzzzzzz. All your " O.K. ands " - has many times been discussed on this forum and exhaustively in 43 pages on this thread : http://www.politicalforum.com/middl...pelled-judaea-after-bar-kochba-revolt-43.html ----- Only a fool would think any single event as "legitimate and right" abt Zionism's colonization plans in Palestine , none happened in isolation Here's a slightly bigger picture : 1876 - 1877 • Ottoman constitution promulgated. Palestinian deputies from Jerusalem attend the first Ottoman parliament in Istanbul, elected under a new Ottoman constitution. 1878 • Petah Tikva, the first modern Zionist agricultural settlement, established in Palestine. 1881 • Ottoman government announces permission for foreign Jews to settle throughout the Ottoman Empire, excluding Palestine. 1882 • First wave of 25,000 Zionist immigrants enters Palestine, coming mainly from Eastern Europe. • Baron Edmond de Rothschild of Paris begins financial backing of Jewish colonization of Palestine. • Ottoman government adopts policy allowing Jewish pilgrims and businessmen to visit Palestine but not to settle there. • Ottoman government informs Jewish leadership in Constantinople that it views Zionist colonization in Palestine as a political problem. 1884 • Ottoman government decides to close Palestine to foreign Jewish businessmen but not to Jewish pilgrims. 1887 - 1888 • Palestine divided by Ottomans into the districts of Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre - the first was attached directly to Istanbul, the others to the wilayet of Beirut. 1891 • German Jewish millionaire, Baron Maurice de Hirsh, founds Jewish Colonization Association (JCA). 1892 • Ottoman government forbids sale of state land to Foreign Jews in Palestine. 1893 • European powers pressure Ottoman government to permit Jews legally residents in Palestine to buy land provided they establish no colonies on it. 1896 • Jewish Colonization Association (JCA) begins operations in Palestine. • Theodore Herzl, an Austro-Hungarian Jewish journalist and writer, publishes Der Judenstaat, advocating establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine or elsewhere. • Ottoman Sultan Abd-al Hamid II rejects Herzl's proposal that Palestine be granted to the Jews. • JCA starts assisting Zionist settlement in Palestine. 1897 • First Zionist Congress in Switzerland issues the Basle Program calling for the establishment of a "home for the Jewish people in Palestine". It also establishes the World Zionist Organization (WZO) to work to that end. •In response to First Zionist Congress, Abd-al Hamid II initiates policy of sending members of his own Palace staff to govern province of Jerusalem. • Commission headed by Muhammad Tahir al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, appointed to scrutinize Zionist land acquisition methods. 1898 • Arabic press reacts to first Zionist Congress: Cairo journal al-Manar warns that Zionism aims to take possession of Palestine. 1899 • Albert Antebi, JCA representative in Jerusalem, observes that program of First Zionist Congress has adversely affected relations between Palestinians and Jewish immigrants. • Herzl sends letter to Palestinian Mayor of Jerusalem hinting that, if Zionists not welcomed in Palestine, they will go elsewhere. 1900 • Ottoman government sends commission of inquiry to Palestine to study implications of Zionist mass immigration and land acquisition. 1901 • Pressured by European powers, Ottoman government allows foreign Jews to buy land in Northern Palestine. • Jewish National Fund (JNF) set up by Fifth Zionist Congress in Basle to acquire land for WZO; land acquired by JNF to be inalienably Jewish, and exclusively Jewish labor to be employed on it. • Ottoman restrictions on Zionist immigration to and land acquisition in Jerusalem district take effect. • Administrative Council of Jerusalem strongly objects to JCA 's attempts at acquiring in Jerusalem district. • Palestinian farmers in Tiberias region express alarm at extent of Zionist land acquisition. 1902 • JCA representative Antebi observes that "the ill will of the local population coincides with the creation of Zionism". 1903 • Second wave of Zionist mass immigration to Palestine begins. 1904 • Death of Theodore Herzl. • Tensions develop between Zionist colonists and Palestinian farmers in Tiberias region. 1907 • First kibbutz, based on exclusively Jewish labor, established. • Report issued by Ottoman governor of Jerusalem on Zionist evasion of Ottoman immigration and land-transfer regulations. 1908 • Palestinian deputies from Jerusalem, Jaffa, Nablus and Acre elected to Ottoman parliament of 1908 in Constantinople. • Beginning of "Young Turks" Revolution in Constantinople. 1909 • Tel Aviv founded north of Jaffa. • Tensions and clashes between Zionist colonists and Palestinian farmers near Nazareth. • Zionists issue raised for the first time in Ottoman parliament by Palestinian deputy from Jaffa. 1910 • Arabic newspapers in Beirut, Damascus and Haifa express opposition to Zionist land acquisition in Palestine. 1911 • European powers pressure Ottoman government to allow land acquisition in Palestine. • Palestinian newspaper Filastine begins to appear; addressing its readers as "Palestinians", it warns about consequences of Zionist colonization. • Two Jerusalem deputies open first full-scale debate in Ottoman parliament on Zionism, charging that Zionist aim is to create Jewish state in Palestine. 1912 • European powers renew pressure on Ottoman government to facilitate Zionist land acquisition in Palestine. 1914 • World War I starts. 1915 • Correspondence between Sharif Hussein of Mecca (leader of the Arab Revolt against the Ottomans) and Sir Henry McMahon (British high commissioner of Egypt) begins. • Jemal Pasha, Ottoman military governor, hangs 11 Arab nationalists in Beirut. 1916 • Hussein - McMahon correspondence ends in agreement for postwar independence and unity of Arab provinces of Ottoman Empire. • Sykes - Picot Agreement secretly signed, dividing Ottoman Empire between Britain and France. Agreement revealed by Bolsheviks in December 1917. • Sharif Hussein proclaims Arab independence from Ottoman on basis of his correspondence with Mc Mahon. Arab Revolt against Constantinople begins. • Sharif Hussein proclaimed "King of the Arab countries". To overcome yr apparent deep[ly entrenched views - it might help you if you read much - much - MUCH - MORE here , : http://www.endusmilitarism.org/info_related_to_nakba.html btw - it also suited some Europeans/(inc.USA) to export their unwanted Jews (their Jewish problem) - elsewhere. Tata..... ...... . .
There is no such facts!!!! And you do not have any evidentiary proof!!! A People that lived thousand of years normally leaves vestiges of their existence, archeological sites, historical facts!!! NONE FOR THE ARABS <BEFORE 610 AD> WHEN MOHAMMAD SUPPOSEDLY RECEIVED HIS CALL... You have been persistent with your outlandish propagation... no evidence though.
Here is what the Arab author Hisham Melhem writes... Subject: Slow death - Arab civilization has collapsed http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ans-within-our-gates-111116.html#.VB9jYN3fZBF The Barbarians Within Our Gates Arab civilization has collapsed. It won’t recover in my lifetime ~By HISHAM MELHEM September 18, 2014 With his decision to use force against the violent extremists of the Islamic State, President Obama is doing more than to knowingly enter a quagmire. He is doing more than play with the fates of two half-broken countries—Iraq and Syria— whose societies were gutted long before the Americans appeared on the horizon. Obama is stepping once again—and with understandably great reluctance —into the chaos of an entire civilization that has broken down. Arab civilization, such as we knew it, is all but gone. The Arab world today is more violent, unstable, fragmented and driven by extremism —the extremism of the rulers and those in opposition— than at any time since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire a century ago. Every hope of modern Arab history has been betrayed. The promise of political empowerment, the return of politics, the restoration of human dignity heralded by the season of Arab uprisings in their early heydays —all has given way to civil wars, ethnic, sectarian and regional divisions and the reassertion of absolutism, both in its military and atavistic forms. With the dubious exception of the antiquated monarchies and emirates of the Gulf —which for the moment are holding out against the tide of chaos— and possibly Tunisia, there is no recognizable legitimacy left in the Arab world. Is it any surprise that, like the vermin that take over a ruined city, the heirs to this self-destroyed civilization should be the nihilistic thugs of the Islamic State? And that there is no one else who can clean up the vast mess we Arabs have made of our world but the Americans and Western countries? No one paradigm or one theory can explain what went wrong in the Arab world in the last century. There is no obvious set of reasons for the colossal failures of all the ideologies and political movements that swept the Arab region: Arab nationalism, in its Baathist and Nasserite forms; various Islamist movements; Arab socialism; the rentier state and rapacious monopolies, leaving in their wake a string of broken societies. No one theory can explain the marginalization of Egypt, once the center of political and cultural gravity in the Arab East, and its brief and tumultuous experimentation with peaceful political change before it reverted back to military rule. Nor is the notion of “ancient sectarian hatreds” adequate to explain the frightening reality that along a front stretching from Basra at the mouth of the Persian Gulf to Beirut on the Mediterranean there exists an almost continuous bloodletting between Sunni and Shia —the public manifestation of an epic geopolitical battle for power and control pitting Iran, the Shia powerhouse, against Saudi Arabia, the Sunni powerhouse, and their proxies. There is no one single overarching explanation for that tapestry of horrors in Syria and Iraq, where in the last five years more than a quarter of a million people perished, where famed cities like Aleppo, Homs and Mosul were visited by the modern terror of Assad’s chemical weapons and the brutal violence of the Islamic State. How could Syria tear itself apart and become —like Spain in the 1930s— the arena for Arabs and Muslims to re-fight their old civil wars? The war waged by the Syrian regime against civilians in opposition areas combined the use of Scud missiles, anti-personnel barrel bombs as well as medieval tactics against towns and neighborhoods such as siege and starvation. For the first time since the First World War, Syrians were dying of malnutrition and hunger. Iraq’s story in the last few decades is a chronicle of a death foretold. The slow death began with Saddam Hussein’s fateful decision to invade Iran in September 1980. Iraqis have been living in purgatory ever since with each war giving birth to another. In the midst of this suspended chaos, the U.S. invasion in 2003 was merely a catalyst that allowed the violent chaos to resume in full force. The polarizations in Syria and Iraq —political, sectarian and ethnic— are so deep that it is difficult to see how these once-important countries could be restored as unitary states. In Libya, Muammar al-Qaddafi’s 42-year reign of terror rendered the country politically desolate and fractured its already tenuous unity. The armed factions that inherited the exhausted country have set it on the course of breaking up —again, unsurprisingly — along tribal and regional fissures. Yemen has all the ingredients of a failed state: political, sectarian, tribal, north-south divisions, against the background of economic deterioration and a depleted water table that could turn it into the first country in the world to run out of drinking water. Hisham Melhem is the Washington bureau chief of Al-Arabiya, the Dubai-based satellite channel. He is also the correspondent for Annahar, the leading Lebanese daily.
No pun intended... We have in Israel some odd people too... Looka here... . The Labor Party in Israel plus the Livni Gang plus Meretz argue that, sure, the Gaza "withdrawal" produced war, terror, rockets and Hamastan, but that is because it was implemented without any signed "agreement" with the "Palestinians." If THEY were to be in charge, they would "withdraw" from the West Bank as part of a signed agreement and that of course would make all the difference. So I have a question for them. What exactly is the difference between a terrorist who beheads you and a terrorist who signs a formal treaty and agreement swearing never to behead you but then beheads you? Please explain. 2. This is quite a remarkable article about Jewish leftist anti-Semitism, and it is even more remarkable that it ran in Haaretz. Worth reading: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...ange-illness-of-jewish-anti-semitism-1.267172 3. Let's rename the so-called "Two State Solution" as "The Proposal to Convert the West Bank into a New Terrorist Rocket Launching Base in order to allow Peace Now and Meretz to feel Righteous about themselves." I go along with these facts... it is no longer the Arabs unique in Israel's decimation but some Jews that fantasize that there must be two states living in harmony <side by side>...
Nobody lived for THOUSAND YEARS... nor did anyone live 200 years... That's fiction. "Im 1978 a pilgrime was found with the words: "Egypt, died, Shlomo, Paroah, Moses, water, and there god". This pilgrime was found in Saudi Arabia. In 1978 wheels covered with corals, in the southern side of Nuweiba's caost, a golden wheels were been found also. Those wheels were with 4, 6 and 8 rims. one of the 8 tims wheel that was found, took to be exemind by Nasif Muhammad Hassan, an Antique manager, and he declered that the wheel came from the 18th dinesty of ancient Egypt, period of time that the Israelites were there. The golden wheels that were ben found were belong to the Egyptean nobilty, which they were the only ones that used goldan wheels. In 1988, a group of researchers came back to Nuweiba's caost to exemine more, and they found more 6 rims wheels from the 18th dinesty of Egypt. AND that is answering you about the assumption of the profesor that there werent any new discoveries in archaeology." The above was from the amateur archeology of Ron Wyatt... FRAUD.. He was like PT Barnum and could always raise money from suckers.. but could never prove any of his phony claims. He was never in KSA nor did he find any chariot wheels in the Red Sea. However, if you READ the OT there were Arabs in Jerusalem when the Hebrews returned from the Babylonian exile... long before the advent of Islam there were Arabs.
Hi Margot , I came across the following some time ago - thought it might be of interest . "Arabia Deserta The nomadic tribes from Arabia Deserta, in Akkadian called Aribi, frequently invaded the surrounding countries -i.e., Arabia Felix and Mesopotamia-, where they sometimes managed to settle. Hardly anything about these isolated 'people without history' is known, although it seems certain that they became camel riders in the tenth or ninth century BC. By 250 BC various Arabian tribes began moving into the Levant. There is record of the tribe of Qedar, and the Nabatu making inroads into Edomite, Moabite and Jewish territories. In the Parthian and Roman period, several Arabian dynasties ruled towns in what is now Syria and Iraq: Palmyra, Emesa, Edessa, Hatra, Characene and Gerrha. While it is common for modern people to think of all of the inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula as 'Arabs,' the ancient historians often referred to these people by their direct tribal name. This is very important in discovering who the real Arabs were. Arabia Petraea These Arabs lived between Egypt and Mesopotamia, eventually leaving their nomadic way of life, they build several towns. The principle people in this area were the Nabataeans and Petra was their capital. The oldest reference to these Arabs can be found in the biblical book Genesis, where Arabian merchants buy and sell Jacob's son Joseph. Other references can be found in the Assyrian king Salmanasser's account of a battle in 853 BC and in the reports about a kingdom named Aribi, that is mentioned from Tiglath- Pileser III (ruled 745-727) onward and was an Assyrian vassal until the second half of the seventh century. Later, the Arabs were subdued by the Babylonian king Nabonidus, who made the oasis of Tema' his capital and reached Iatribu (modern Medina). According to the Greek researcher Herodotus, the Persian king Cambyses did not subdue the Arabs when he attacked Egypt in 525 BC. His successor Darius I does not mention the Arabs in the Behistun inscription from the first years of his reign, but mentions them in later texts; this suggests that Darius conquered this part of Arabia. There are no indications that these Arabs were or were not loyal subjects of later Persian kings. After the Macedonian king Alexander the Great had conquered the Persian empire (between 335 and 323), this part of Arabia remained more or less autonomous for centuries. In 106 AD, however, the part corresponding to modern Jordan was made a province of the Roman empire by the emperor Trajan. There were several cities in this province: from north to south Adraa (modern Dara'), Dion (unknown), Gerasa (Jerash), Philadelphia (Amman) and Aila (Aqaba). During the Roman Period, historians such as Josephus and Strabo freely intermix the use of the word Arab with Nabataean, and vice versa. Nabataean kings were known as kings of the 'Arabs' and their kingdom was known as Arabia. Thus it was only fitting that the Nabataean Kingdom became known as the Province of Arabia, once it was absorbed into the Roman Empire." ---- "Arab genealogists make Isma'il the ancestor of the northern Arabian tribes and link them to him through Adnan, one of Isma'il's sons. Isma'il was supposedly buried alongside his mother Hagar in the Hidjr inside the Haram. Genesis 25:12-18 tells us that the twelve Ishmaelite tribes spread out in the Syro-Arabian desert between Sinai and the western boarders of the Euphrates. The marriage of Esau to the daughter of Isma'il (Gen 28:9, 36:3-4, 13, 17) demonstrated how the Edomites came from the intermixing of Abraham's line with the Ishmaelites. Midianites In Genesis 37:27-28, and Geneses 37:28, 36, the term Ishmaelite and Midianite is intermixed. Some feel that all nomads were called Ishmaelites, and that these were nomadic Midianites. In the book of Judges (6:3, 33; 7:12, 13, 14, 23, 24; 8:2 the term Midianites refers to the Midianites, Amalekites, and the 'children of the east.' The Midianites, who descended from Keturah (Genesis 25:1-6), Abraham's second wife) were probably at the head of a tribal confederation. The defeat of the Midianites by Gideon is the starting point for their decline as a dominant political entity, and the rise to prominence of the Ishmaelites as a nomadic group. The Qedarites presided over most of the north Arabian tribes until late in the Persian Empire. After this the Nabataeans took over politically. Much more here : its long but IMO time well spent : http://nabataea.net/arabia.html In conclusion the writer says : "From the information included in this paper, I have attempted to demonstrate that the word 'Arab' has had a wide variety of uses over the centuries. Despite this wide use, it is my opinion that the majority of ancient historians who wrote, or gleanded their material from the period that the Nabataeans were at the height of their power, considered the Nabataeans to be Arabs and the Arabs to be Nabataeans ....
I never mentioned that a Human can live thousands of years... But if there were Arabs in Eretz Yisrael they must have lived in a community. There is no such community of Arabs, there is no Arab Archeological sights, no vestiges of Arab manufactured goods i.e. water jar with inscriptions, just nothing! I deduct that what the Arabs are doing is reinvent history to give them a fictitious foothold in the Land of the Jews! Period.
When I said "ok and...?" in my last comment to you, it was because of the simple reason that what you said about the Ashkenazim, Minister of Education Gideon Saar said and about the inspirations of Ben Zvi and Ben Gurion it was simply nothing that rainfoeced your claim, but if you would look about what Ben Zvi and Ben Gurion said was just rainforced what I said, and because of that I said to you "ok and...?" About what you wrote in the link you gave me (you refered about the intermarige that happend between the Cna'anites tribes and Isrealites. Let me started by saying that the word "Cna'an", according to the ancient texts, is "the color red", which means that Cna'an was the land of Carmine's delers which were the Phoenicians. the Phoenicians were the once that lived in Arod, located in the coast of Syria, to Acre. The word "Phoenicians" was brghout from the Greeks, when the translation of this word in Greek is "the people of Tyrus" , a place in the caost of Lebanon. They were mentioned in the Bible to as "Sidonians". So you are saying that only a fool would think any single event will make the act after it as legitimate? hmmm, let us explore it with a little question: In 1068, William the conqueror, arrived a place nowadays called "England", and brought up all of the communities that lived there, and that places was started to be called "England", so the question is: According to what you said, can England, a place which you are living in, is a legitimate because of that one single event that happened with William? if so, so do the legitimate in moving Jews from Europe into the Land of Israel in the 19th century after a premission that was given by the Turkes. "Palestinian deputies"? according to The Mufti of Jerusalem, There were no "Palestinians". "Palestine"- the name that Hadrian, a Roman emperor, named that area (Syria-Palestine). By saying that you are rainforcing what I'm saying. That was what I said, I dont get the point by telling me what I've been already told you. Just rainforcing what I said and you were rejected it and said that "it's not ok" but you are writing it now as "its ok". And how's that Strengthens your claim? So Sultan Abd-al Hamid II rejected Herzl's proposal that this land be granted to the Jews, but rejected Muhammad that said that it is belong to the Jews? really nice!! once again, Muslim rejected and ignoring he's prophet! The Mufti of Jerusalem. in the British Mandate, declatred that the Zionist land acquisitions that took place was legitimate and the majority of the Arabs that lived in the Land of Israel and sold to the Jews was because they want to. First of all, Herzl wanted that Oganda will be a place which the Jews could live in, not the Land of Israel, years later he changed it and soppurted the idea in the Land of Israel. Secondly, Albert Albert was the JCA representative in Jerusalem between the years 1901-1913, which means that he couldnt say what you wrote he said in 1899. So he ignored all of the Jews that were living in the Land of Israel before the moving of the European Jews to the Land of Israel, and just because the moving the hate and the will to kill Jews started because of the immigration to the Land of Israel? the question you have to ask you how come that hate didnt begin in the Arabslong before the immigration? it is a little bit odd that the hate started just because the immigration and not long before that. This is refering to the history of the Turkes not the history of the Jews! Those events were between the Arabs and the Turkes!! the Jews werent involved in it! so I dont see the value of it when we are talking about the history about the conflict. BTW- if you will read what you posted, so you could see that you wrote "(leader of The Arab revolt...)". Still you are calling them "Palestinians"- go figure!! The agreement divided Ottoman empire between Franch and Britain, as you said, but you are ignoring the fact that, as the Ottoman with the premission of Jewish immigration, the british also agreed about the existance of Jews in the Land of Israel, and also decided according to San Remo resolution, a resolution that the UN adopted, that the land of Israel is belong to the Jews and a Jewish rule need to be established there, and it did happened in 1948, after an Arab rejection to the UN partition plan, that anounced that the Land of Israel will be "the country of Israel". BTW- in the British promising to the Jews, the Jewish rule will be with Transjordan, but of course in 1922 Jordan was established after the British essisted the Arabs declaring an Arab state, and still after all this they still want a state? even after the British essited to declared one for them? go figure!!
Do the Italians have a historical claim to Britain because they ruled here from 47BC until about 410AD?
There is a large Arab Quarter in Jerusalem............. The Jewish city state in Syria Palestine was small and generally a vassal state to some other power. It was poor and mean .. located in bandit territory on the trade route. Basically it was a small. walled village.. a pile of rocks with very little water. - - - Updated - - - LOLOL.. Italians are not that stupid..
Exactly! Where would you prefer; balmy, sun-drenched Italy with fabulous food and a great attitude to life, or rain-soaked Britain with lousy food and constantly complaining people? No wonder they went back home! Then again... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSIa0Iwuvu0 I'm blessed to have all this at my doorstep.
So you jazz again... all the above insults are without any substantiation... there is NO, NO, NO evidentiary proof that Arabs were in Eretz Yisrael before 632 AD and take this to the Bank.
No, they dont have!! BUT probably you are forgeting one more historical fact that I showed Marlowe, Margot2 and many users like them here- all across the history Jews were been here, the "Palestinians" were never exited, thus they cant claim anything around the Land of Israel, the only historical claim they have is according to the Arabian rule that was existed in the Land of Israel, and even here to the "Palestinians" can claim anything. Even Marlowe wrote the ARabic history in that land (as "The Arab Revolt"). BTW- the UK, aka Britain, was founded in 1704 so when the Italian rule there, there was any "Britain" or "UK", YOU ARE FORGETING THAT FACT TOO. Even England wasnt existed in 47 BC until 410 AD!! England was founded by William the Conqueror In 1066.
Actually there is plenty of proof... they are excavating Arab villages in the hill country. MUSLIMS didn't arrive in Palestine until 632 AD, but Arabs existed before Islam and they are mentioned as living in Jerusalem immediately after the Babylonian exile in the Old Testament.
Where on earth did you go to school? In December 1066, William the Conqueror was crowned the first Norman king of England, in Westminster Abbey.. before that they had Anglo Saxon Kings.
