Why are N95 masks even AVAILABLE to the general public if hospitals are short?

FALSE. In one of Trump's briefings the head of FEMA stated that they did not have the ability to distribute PPE to those who need it. All they could do was use the "supply chaing" - which in this case included giving it to distributors to sell to the highest bidder - here or abroad.

Trump could actually order companies to make PPE under that act.

As a first step, he could request and help corporations who volunteer. This help is what GM was lookig for when Trump started yelling at them for not doing enough!!! GM had already decided to retool a factory to produce this stuff. They just wanted help if they could get it.

Sure, but this time IS different.

Our recent experience with communicable disease was solid warning that we needed to act.

Obama acted by starting to aggregate supplies, but more importantly to start a group of experts who would plan for pandemic response (both natural and bio attack) in somewhat the same way that we have FEMA planning for natural disaster response.

Like FEMA, they were to asses what response would need to be like and work with states (like FEMA does) to communicate to states what they had found and to create an integrated plan that takes the diffrences in state need into account.

That was a seriously important step that we obviously need today - and do not have.

The reason is that Trump ended that - even though it included less than a dozen experts.

Many of the right wing media and politicians consider Gates to be undermining their desire to open the country to work, close contact, etc. When Gates adds his understanding, that tends to undermine their desire for opening without consulting science - or business executives, for that matter. Also, there are STILL those who see COVID as a Democratic attack on the president - which is what FOX, and others loudly stated from the start.

Obama ordered such a group to be formed.

Trump presided over an organizational change in the White House that explicity eliminated the planning group. At least the lead of the group wasn't fired - rather give some other job.

If Trump didn't know it was happening, then that's a problem. But, there is no question that he knew afterwards, as there were numerous people who gave serious rebuttal to that move - including from the CDC. At that time (or afterwards) it could have been reestablished. It was a small number of experts with not much budget - there is no chance it had to do with cost cutting. It wasn't reestablished. In fact it doesn't exist today.

 

And did the Head of FEMA actually say that it included anything along the lines of, "giving it to distributors to sell to the highest bidder - here or abroad?" I notice that you didn't actually quote them.

He did for ventilators didn't he? So I can't see why he wouldn't have for PPE.

I understand that Trump didn't end it personally.

Why is the desire to open the country only a right wing thing? I assume that the left also desire to open the country too.

Well why would business need to be consulted? They either decide to open or not, once they have that freedom to choose.

It IS a Democratic attack on the president! Are you seriously saying it's not? I'm not saying that none of the attacks are justified, but they are CLEARLY using it to attack him!

 

Oh well, I suppose we have to praise China for giving us the genome to a virus that they're responsible for, which they basically had no other choice but to do. Yes, all is forgiven!

They knew the risks from past viruses. Stop covering for them. Not even the Washington Post is! And it doesn't get much more left wing than that!

Sure, but there wouldn't BE an explosion in America or anywhere else in the world if China had been more careful and not allowed dangerous animal practices to continue.

Yeah, except CAUSE the thing.

Yeah, based on their FAKE numbers! Did you not see the recent news about them admitting that they lied about the death numbers?

Well what else is there other than saying that the Chinese conspired to deliberately release the virus?

As in the virus was created by the Democrats? No, that's stupid and you have no idea what you're talking about.

And yet you have failed to cite just ONE! In case you've forgotten, you said that China also ousted "those who had not properly reported their findings." This remains your unsupported assertion. I wonder if you can support it at some point in the future.

I don't understand why it coming from bats means that it had nothing to do with wet markets which SELL bats! That makes no logical sense!

I've heard the theory that it was passed from a bat to a civet cat, which was then eaten by humans.

These are the people "who had not properly reported their findings?"

 

He didn't say it that way. He said that FEMA doesn't have a way to judge need, so they use th supply chain to do that. But, that just means that they are giving it to those who take bids and do delivery. This came in one of Trump's briefings. It was part of the Q&A that included the press asking what FEMA was doing with the products that they interdict.

He hammered GM for not doing it on their own - when they WERE doing it on their own.

The issue isn't whether Trump could use it - it's a matter of whether he HAS used it.

I don't see a meaningful distinction.

EVERYBODY wants the economy to get back to normal. That is NOT a right wing issue.

The issue is over what that takes. Trump has started 4 or 5 separate planning groups. The latest was a group of industry executives. Those executives concurred with medical science that our testing capacity has to be FAR higher in order for a plan to work.

So, now we have Trump encouraging protests against the best practices promoted by his own CDC and the governors who are folloing medical science!!

Why isn't he working on the requirements for opening our economy instead to berating governors who are following CDC guidelines?

Why would the president encourage protesting against governors???

This is a public policy issue. And, regardless of how we do it there will be more people being exposed and getting COVID.

Having businesses compete to see who opens earliest is NOT a valid policy. In fact, it could open the possibility of employee lawsuits on failure that results.

Yes, I'm seriously saying that the CDC is not leading an assault on the president.

And, what people are insisting on is backed by the CDC as important.

Demanding that the USA is led toward the best outcome is NOT a partisan attack.

Today, Trump is NOT doing what the executive branch needs to do. And, every briefing from January on has included statements that are well known to be false and destructive to the effort we need toward opening this economy.

In a democracy, suggesting that one must simply sit back and accept that is total BS. And, Republicans KNOW that.

 

NO. This is TOTAL nonsense.

China is in NO WAY responsible for a virus crossing over to attack humans.

That is something that can not be controlled.

Let's remember that the first case of Spanish Flu was identified in Kansas.

Was America to blame for that pandemic???

 

Well, one could tell the truth, I suppose.

NOBODY in medical science believes this nonsense about China "releasing" this virus.

No. As in that COVID19 was harmless (like flu) and that Democrats were fanning it into a political attack on the president by not overreacting to a nonsense issue.

This was explicitly laid out by Fox (including Reagan, Hannity and others) and by Rushbo, Breightbart and others.

The market in question is a fish market. Epidemiologists say COVID did not come from the market. China also believes that, thus they reopened the market - which at this point could only infect the local population - which is clearly not in China's interest.

There also seems to be evidece that it could have entered the Pangolin population - which is so desirable for meat and medicine (that is not science based) that the pangolin population is in danger.[/QUOTE]

 

He actually said that FEMA doesn't have a way to judge need? According to Huffington Post, FEMA issued a statement that it works with an organization and companies that may be “obligated to sell a predetermined percentage of their cargo to areas that HHS [Health and Human Services] and FEMA identified as hot spots. This ... may be misconstrued as FEMA ‘commandeering’ supplies.” https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/e...tDREj92r9Lm1X6Eo7pvuDg8rBOG__hxisdnjEsIToNeiU

Isn't the idea that the country can be opened up incrementally, starting with minimally affected areas? I keep hearing people saying WE NEED TO GET BACK TO WORK, but that is ridiculously vague - assuming that they're not literally calling for the entire country to be reopened at once. I assume that the people saying this are not actually calling for New York to be reopened immediately.

Are you referring to his tweets where he said, "LIBERATE MINNESOTA, LIBERATE MICHIGAN and LIBERATE VIRGINIA?" Yeah, these were stupidly vague. He doesn't make it clear if by "liberate" he means remove every single measure which has been put it place and go back to normal, although I can't imagine that. There would've been nothing wrong with him simply supporting the right for the people to protest, while at the same time saying that they should obey social distancing guidelines. Although, it seems that your problem with the protests isn't limited to their lack of social distancing, but rather what they were protesting about. Just let them protest - it's not as if the protests are somehow going to force governors to go against the science.

Well, you said above that "Trump has started 4 or 5 separate planning groups." What's that if not "working on the requirements for opening our economy?" And yes, he shouldn't be berating the governors.

If he feels that they have gone too far. I'm not saying that it's justified in this case, but are you saying that a president would NEVER have grounds to encourage protesting against governors?

What the hell? I didn't say CDC, I said Democrats! You said, "there are STILL those who see COVID as a Democratic attack on the president." And I said "it IS a Democratic attack on the president! Are you seriously saying it's not? I'm not saying that none of the attacks are justified, but they are CLEARLY using it to attack him!"

Well the economy was still open in January, so what are you talking about?

 

China has long known the risks of dangerous animal practices given their past viruses. Are you saying that this would've been a complete surprise to them? It's certainly not a surprise to the rest of the world.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that the only possibility is that China conspired to deliberately release the virus! You were talking about multiple conspiracy theories and I'm saying that there's only one that I know of - that China conspired to deliberately release the virus. What are the others?

Yes, this is right. However, do you acknowledge that some of the left wing media was also calling it the flu?

Hannity and others at Fox? Yes. Reagan? No. She actually didn't call it the flu, but she did call it a political attack by Democrats. And it's NOT evident that she was fired over this.

Yes, which falls under the category of wet market. And are you under the impression that it sold exclusively fish? If so, you're dead wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

They've said that they know for certain? If so, that's news to me, but okay.

Actually, I meant to say Pangolin, not civet cat. I've heard the theory that it was passed from a bat to a Pangolin, which was then eaten by humans. Or possibly the other way around.

Yes, according to what they say. Now here's the BIG question - do you actually believe them?

 

It's been repeatedly reported that FEMA has interdicted deliveries purchased for hospitals.

I don't know about your case of FEMA adding requirements for resale, but your comment only suggests that SOME of the stolen goods are subsequently sold to hospitals in need. That is NOT what the FEMA director said in Trump's briefing a while back and it still involves stealing product and giving only a fration of it available for states, hospitals to bid on.

I don't believe protestors are NEARLY that organized. And, the central argument I've heard is that there are places that haven't been hit yet, and THEY want to ignore best practices. NYC is still a major problem. I doubt they are so stupid as to call for ignoring protective measures.

?? We are a democracy. Governors can't override all their cnstituents.

Besides, when the president of the USA declears tha the measures aren't needed it is seen as a directive that medical science is simply wrong and that the measures aren't valid.

Trump is undermining medical science (inclding the CDC), business executives, and definitely governors, as he wants to shift blame to governors. He's also tried to shift blame to WHO which as actually been highly effective.

 

- epidemiologists say "dangerous animal pratices" didn't have anything to do with the movement of this viirus to attak humans.
- viruses have entered the human population in many places in the world. This is not something that governments can prevent. We don't have control over evolution or transmission. For example, the first case of Spanish Flu was detected on a military base in Kansas.
- of COURSE it was a "surprise". The world has been well aware that we are HIGHLY vulnerable to this kind of attack. But, this virus could not have been predicted and it took time to identify because people had to start noticing that there was a new disease and to figure out what it is. Plus, the fact that it is communicable for a long time before symptoms appear makes it harder, too.

I've answered this multiple times. The most likely vector is bats. It could also be that bats were involved with pangolins, with one of these species giving it to another.

That is not even SLIGHTLY similar to broadcasting that it is a Democratic plot against the president. And, Trump and other right wingers proclaimed this to be no more than the flu long after medical science pointed out the falsity of that statement.

Yes - Reagan promoted it as a Democratic plot and there is no indication that that message was opposed by FOX, Breightbart, or the rest. Rusbo has not retracted his accusation - an irresponsible and dangerous healthcare faslehood.

You don't have an issue here. It's not "wet" because of fish. It's "wet" because it is animal and includes slaughter - the problem being sanitary conditions.

But, COVID didn't have to do with the market - regardless of what was sold there.

Good. Let's get off this market thing.

Absolutely.

It's science not politics. It involves multiple groups investigating. They aren't claiming they have proof nor have they stopped looking.

This is how sience works. These people live and die by the truth of what they say. If they fudge, they get to look for a new job.

It is NOTHING like Rushbo or Hannity, who live and die by being entertaining. The audience is NOT particularly interested in the truth.

 

We've heard this a 100 times and it's been addressed over and over at the briefings. EVERYONE is looking for supplies, EVERYONE! There is no way for a state not to compete if FEMA if FEMA is not aware. The proper protocol is for the State to call The FEMA director and let them know that they are bidding as well and coordinate. FEMA is buying and delivering directly to those that have called, need serious help, and had the conversation with FEMA. This is the quickest way to get product period. You don't want a nationalized system for sure where they order it get shipped to the fed, repacked and shipped to the state, then to a hospital. Unfortunately, nobody could have imagined the amount of supplies we needed on this and thank god the Whitehouse got everyone from the My Pillow guy to GMC to make supplies or we would really be screwed.

 

- there is PLENTY of opportunity for the federal level to coordinate this problem rather that to make it a matter of wealth whether a locaion gets healthcare support. There is no excuse here. It's a US wide issue, not a state by state issue.

- FEMA is VERY aware that they are bidding against states and hospitals. This is NOT an excuse of any kind.

- FEMA works to interdict sales that are WELL KNOW to have been signed by hospitals and states. And, it is TOTAL BS to claim that states and hospitals should coordinate with FEMA when FEMA has no process for that.

- while FEMA MAY have delivered some products to some hospitals, the FEMA director STATES that FEMA has no way of judging need and has thus given products it requires to outlets that put the materials up for bid - more recently with a stipulation that some percent of sales go to howpitals that have significant need. But, FEMA states that they can't measure need, so are they expecting these outlets to measure need??? And, those outlets are free to take overseas bids.

- your "feds repackage" thing is just you creating total nonsense as an excuse. FEMA does NOT need to ever be in the supply chain. It can be controlled WITHOUT that.

- the president has the Defense Productivity Act and CAN cause companies to produce more product. That act has NOT been used to any rational degree. And, the GM thing is NOT an example. GM was shifting to produce needed COVID products before Trump ever knew they were. He yelled at them PURELY for show - a disgusting thing to do to a volunteer, especially of that magnitude.

Why didn't Trump LAUD GM as an example of a company doing the right thing??? Why didn't he encourage more to do so?

 

Your point is that they had no obvious reason to be "stealing" products. I suggested that it's most likely because they are giving it to hospitals which are in the most need - to which you replied saying that the head of FEMA said that, "FEMA doesn't have a way to judge need" although you didn't provide a direct quote. I then replied with a direct quote from FEMA which said that HHS [Health and Human Services] and FEMA "identified hot spots." So are you absolutely positive that the FEMA head said that they don't have a way to judge need? You may need to rethink it given my direct FEMA quote which is in stark contradiction to your claim.

Are you against re-opening incrementally, starting with minimally affected areas?

Sure, but are there elections coming up where the people can throw out their governor?

When did Trump make it clear that the measures aren't needed? With his "liberate" tweets?

Where did you hear that this was happening? Can you cite a source? "Trump planning group report" returns no relevant results on Google.

In what way? You're speaking as if the WHO is a country which you are comparing to the US.

If a governor signed a law which was in violation of the constitution?

It's not EXCLUSIVELY an attack on him, but it IS being USED as an attack! You have been doing it all the way throughout our discussion! Again, I'm not saying that none of the attacks are justified, but are you seriously saying that you aren't attacking Trump over his response to coronavirus?

Irrelevant to what you said. You said, "every briefing from January on has included statements that are well known to be false and destructive to the effort we need toward opening this economy." Why was opening the economy relevant back in January when it was still perfectly open?

And none of this would be happening if Trump didn't say anything bad about China?

 

So it has nothing to do with what people in China eat?

I'm asking what are the other CONSPIRACY THEORIES! Other than the theory that China conspired to deliberately release the virus, which is the only one that I'm aware of.

You're right - saying that it's just like the flu is MUCH worse!

Correct. And some of the left wing media joined them. Are you not aware of this?

Can you back up your assertion that "epidemiologists say COVID did not come from the market?" Everything that I've read has said that it's not certain.

And yet you have failed to cite just ONE! In case you've forgotten, you said that China also ousted "those who had not properly reported their findings." This remains your unsupported assertion. I wonder if you can support it at some point in the future.

 

"Hot spots" are not the same as hospitals that are in greatest need. He said they have no method of evaluating and rankig hospitals by level of needs.

And, the head of FEMA said their deliveries were primarily to outlets that would then put them up for bid. Primarily as they have places other than hospitals to deliver to - like executive branch employees.

 

So then what is your understanding of what a "hot spot" is?

Has FEMA said that they are only exclusively delivering to hospitals, meaning that they have gone against what they've said?

Oh dear. You don't have anything further? You were doing so well! Or maybe there's more to come given that you've done multiple replies to the same post before. Let's see if you can come up with anything!

 

Is this next ... ?

 

No. Reopening is both important and inevitable. But, medical science and business executives have stated requirements for doing so.

Those requirements are not being met.

This has been pointed out repeatedly in the legitimate press and among experts in contagious disease.

Instead of encouraging people to protest (the president encouraging protesting against the various governors and science?? WTF), Trump should have pushed for providing the requirements months ago.

 

Asked and answered repeatedly.

 

You didn't make it clear what you've answered repeatedly. Here was my post with two questions:

1. So then what is your understanding of what a "hot spot" is?

2. Has FEMA said that they are only exclusively delivering to hospitals, meaning that they have gone against what they've said?

 

Months ago? BEFORE the lock down?

 

I doesn't matter what I think a hot spot is. People can't have their own personal definitions, or there is no communication.

REPEATEDLY I've pointed out that FEMA stated in a briefing that they were NOT delivering to hospitals. My understanding is that there have not been a few deliveries to hospitals, but FEMA has also stated that they have no way of measuring need and Trump repeatedly that our government will NOT determine need, coordinate deliveries, source PPE , cause US companiesto create PPE using the Defense Production Act, or otherwise be involved in the PPE issue.

While our government has strayed from that a bit it remains the general state of participation by the federal government - includig that FEMA appears to be continuing to interdict shipments of PPE, which leaves hospitals believing that they have purchased PPE when those shipments then evaporate - leaving hospitals in WORSE shape than they were before (due to the wasted time).

The above has been posted to you MANY TIMES.

 

Today.

 

What the hell? You said that "Trump should have pushed for providing the requirements MONTHS ago."

 

Well you've said what you think a "hot spot" ISN'T - a hospital. So why exactly can't you say what you think it IS?

You meant not DIRECTLY delivering to hospitals, but via "outlets", right?

Well again, I provided a direct quote from FEMA which said that "HHS [Health and Human Services] and FEMA identified hot spots." What is identifying hot spots if not measuring need?

Can you cite ONE SINGLE source to back up your claim that Trump said this?

What evidence do you have the FEMA are continuing to interdict shipments?