Why are people who describe themselves as "Progressives" in favor of Hamas and Iran?

OK now you are accusing the US of being a terrorist nation. Be specific, what terrorist acts have the US committed in the last 6 or 7 months?

 

Good luck convincing anyone that Iran doesn't supply war materiel to Hamas. Only you are that naive.

 

Lol. Israel bought Biden.

The US president works to protect Netanyahu internationally while gladly shipping Israel the bombs Israel uses to slaughter Palestinians.

And, it was Trump's policy to get out of Afg by immediate action.

 

We have enabled the slaughter of tens of thousands of Palestinians, mostly women and children.

We've supplied the bombs. We've ensured the political defense of Israel internationally. We've ensured that moves in the world that favor Palestine in Gaza or West Bank are blocked. Netanyahu has stated that the war on Gaza could not be continued without their partners - the USA.

And, the purpose was definitely political, as our objective for decades has been to end Palestine, both in Gaza and West Bank.

Slaughter + political objective = terrorism.


I'm not suggesting that we need to take legal action here at home, but we DO need to STOP the slaughter that we have enabled.

 

as a liberal, I do not know any liberals that support Hamas

they do support Israel and the innocent Gazians though

 

This is an assumption that should be investigated.

If you have evidence, please cite.

Gaza has factories where they make weapons using explosives that come from bombs and other weapons that have been duds.

I can show you vids of Gaza testing their weapons to measure penetration, etc.

 

I don't "support" Hamas. Terrorism can't be accepted. So, Oct 7 is a serious problem.

But, they do get a bad rap, because then defend Gaza against the 20 years of war waged by Israel against them.

 

Even though you have supported terrorism in other posts, this post makes me think that you don't actually know what terrorism is.

 

This was a Leftist operation

"Nothing Wrong With Being Hamas": Radical Leftist Groups Trained Students Before Nationwide Campus Chaos

"WESPAC funds various revolutionary far-left/anti-Western groups."

It's not working out for the Left like they expected.

Harris/Harvard Poll

 

Just for clarification, plainly stated, you don't support or endorse Hamas terrorist action, correct? Oct 7 was wrong and those responsible should be jailed or killed, and not congratulated, correct?

If you do support such things, I would like that plainly stated by you, and not as something others attempt to assert I to your mouth.

 

Same here

 

You're free to discuss meaningful issues.

The Israeli genocide is the ultimate in humanitarian crimes, and the US has aided that effort.

Palestine is a state as per international law.

Israel has lost their war on Gaza.

Netanyahu says he does care about ANY negotiations, which matches his position throughout the entirety of his administration.

Israel promises to invade Rafah, which means wholesale slaughter against half the civilian population of Gaza, a million civilians who have inadequate food, water, medical aid, and a major percentage living in tents.


The IDF is going to have fun times! At Shifa, they lined up civilians and ran over them with a tank. They buried some alive.

And, the world will never forget.

 

I've stated that over and over again.

And, now I ask YOU:

Does Oct 7 justify the destruction of Gaza, the slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians, the execution of aid workers, the press, doctors, nurses and first responders, and now the continuing genocide that leaves Gazans starving to death?

Do you agree that Gaza has been under constant attack by Israel for 20 years, as we recognize the siege of Gaza as an act of continuing war that has left Gaza without an economy, dependent on food aid, prevented from travel, not allowed to fish its most productive waters, without commodities such as bleach that were removed by Israeli inspections?

 

American support Israel defeating Gaza at Rafah. Israel being a deeply moral people are holding off while they build massive tent cities for the Gazans that do not which to martyr themselves to hide terrorists and conceal hostages. It will be interesting to see how many Gazans chose to save themselves rather than martyr themselves as human shields for the terrorists. We should know in time.



Many Leftists posting here pretend that Americans are deeply conflicted about Israel doing what needs to be done in Rafah.

We aren't. We're 18 to 7 for Israel moving forward in Rafah.

 

Of course not.

I would not call it war so much as repression. Apartheid does seem an apt term for the west bank. Ethnic cleansing seems an apt term for Gaza. I would not say "Genocide".

 

Israel isn't planning on bombing those tent cities? Are you sure about that? I ask because wasn't it Israel that told the Palestinians to leave their homes in northern Gaza and go to Rafah where they would be safe from Israeli bombs?

BTW "defeating Gaza at Rafah" is probably something the vast majority of not only Americans but people form all western nations would agree to. That's not the same as the indiscriminate bombing and killing of Palestinians there though. Seems to me that you can drastically change the polling answers if you change the polling questions.

 

So, you would disagree with the ICJ and the UN on genocide. Noted.

The Israeli siege of Gaza over the last 20 years is not something a people can live under.

It is an act of war. It's gone on for longer than the average age of Gaza's population. It has more than just repressed the population. It has cut them out of world commerce - disallowing even exports. It disqualifies disqualifies them from industry. It blocks them from exploring the fossil fuels under their territory, which are believed to be substantial. It's ended their economy long ago. It has killed their future, ending hope for a better tomorrow for their kids.

Now, they can dare to have that hope.

 

Yes. Israel wants to push them out. That's ethnic cleansing.
Israel is not however hunting them down outside of Israel with the goal of killing them all. That would be genocide.

If Palestine was an independent state then perhaps, but it isn't. It is abuse of Israel's own.

 

That's not the definition accepted internationally. Israel is trying to erase the citizens and culture of Gaza. That meets the definition accepted by the ICJ.

Israel and the US can not dodge the charge of genocide by saving some Palestinians in prison, or whatever.

Gaza is part of the state of Palestine. And, it definitely does NOT belong to Israel.

Palestine is a state by virtue of the diplomatic relations Palestine has with more than 130 other states of the UN - plus maybe others??

The USA became a state by being recognized diplomatically after our war, when Morocco formed diplomatic relations with us.

Think about it. Statehood can't have anything to do with the UN, as the UN didn't exist.

UN membership does have importance, but that is about membership in the UN "family" and access to its various branches. There are states that are not members of the UN, even now - Vatican, Taiwan, etc.

 

Then I disagree with the ICJ's definition. That definition cheapens the word, and makes it less effective when addressing actual genocide.

The charge of genocide is wrong, so long as there are people of the same ethnicity in Israel itself who aren't being hunted down and killed by the US or Israel.

There is no state of Palestine. Not yet anyway.

 

No political leadership has EVER tried to do what you want the definition to be. It would be a totally useless collection of letters.

The definition the US uses is as follows, and matches very well with the international conventions:

The US is NOT the master of who is or who is not a state.

We're so welded to Israel that Secretary of State Blinken STATES that he doesn't even know why Gaza will not accept Israel's ceasefire plan - a plan that only pauses the war and calls for Gaza to turn over all hostages. Why would Gaza accept THAT?

He states this in a discussion with Romney.



And, of course he doesn't even talk about the several plans Gaza has offered.

In fact, at one point Blinken states his regret that Israel's siege of Gaza has broken down!!! He WANTED Gaza to live in a state of siege!!

He also says he's in it for what is best for America. That IS his job, but it also is well recognized by Gaza that the USA is their enemy, not an honest broker of peace. Gaza knows who makes the bombs that slaughter their children. This has been a problem for decades. There needs to be an honest broker, and the USA is absolutely NOT an honest broker (that is, ready to understand the needs/law and to treat equally).

 

Hitler saw Jews as a cancer and wanted to kill them all. Israel does not want to kill all arabs or muslims, as can be seen by the fact that they aren't hunting down those who live within Israel proper.

Gaza can't accept anything. There is no representative government speaking for Gazans. There is just Hamas, which is a terrorist organization, and hasn't been elected in the lifetime of many palestinians.

Again, if you are confusing Hamas for the voice of Gazans, then you are making the same mistake as Netenyahu and his supporters are. You are feeding directly into their hands. How can you not see that?

Hamas is evil. Palestinian kids are not evil. Palestinian kids do not deserve to be killed because of the actions of Hamas, and should not be seen as inherently part of Hamas.

I can see now why those here supporting Netanayahu's actions see you as supporting Hamas terrorists. You shouldn't be making excuses for Hamas or pretending they speak for Gaza. You should recognize that both Hamas and Netenyahu have done great evil here.

This is true.

The USA is definitely not unbiased, that's for sure. But who would both be intereted in being such a broker and not be extremely biased?

 

The short answer is that they are just stupid. When you see signs like "Queers for Palestine" it shows that they seemingly have no clue that Hamas or the Palestinians would chop off their heads just for being queer.

 

I do think it's important to know where a poster is coming from when discussing these issues. For example this entire comment of yours can look quite different depending on how you regarded the October 7th terrorist attack. Your view is, as they say, rather nuanced.

 

There are negotiators from numerous countries involved here. Gaza DOES hold a valid opinion that has to be considered. They can't continue to live under Israel's siege that has left its 2 million people in desperation and food insecurity.

The USA labeled Hamas as terrorist long ago - NOT because of Oct 7.

Gaza is one of two principles in this war between Israel and Gaza.

If there is going to be ANY negotiation, Gaza has to be involved. Negotiators have to know what Gaza is offering. They have to know why Gaza is accepting or denying offers in whole or in part. They have to be working on the differences. They have to be considering international law, etc.

And by the way, Gaza has been defending Gaza. Israel's 20 years of war on Gaza has kept Gaza hopeless and food insecure. At NO TIME has Israel been willing to negotiate to end their war on Gaza - or on West Bank, either. That is a MAJOR offense by Israel that has cost large numbers of lives and has resulted in Palestinians losing their property, their farms, their homes and has left Palestinians in West Bank living under the military law of Israel, where they have no representation. Thus, settlers are free to commit crimes against them.

The outcome of Oct 7 is that this issue is finally being negotiated - something neither the US nor Israel wanted, but the only rational way of resolving the problem. Screwing up because of calling Gaza terrorists is an extreme form of demanding failure.