Why Hamas attacked Israel on Oct 7?

What the hell? This is NOT intended to explain 1929. Only 2023.

It's clear you didn't even READ my post. Because there is no "theory" in my post. Only an example of what would need to be addressed if the poster had done proper research.

But it's obvious you have no interest in facts. Only in disseminating prefabricated pro-Netanyahu propaganda.

 

I can't answer your post because it's based on false premises. You assume that October 7th was a unique occurrence and that, simply put, "Israel made them do it".

"In the seventh month, on the holiday of Succoth in 1517, the cruel tyrant; the wrath of the Holy One Be He, Murad Bey, deputy of the Sultan and ruler of Jerusalem, decided in his heart to take out his fury on the Jews in his city and those living in Hebron. And he said 'I will take booty from them and take the Jews in the two cities captive so long as they have the power to see me.' And he carried out his decree. On that day, his men came to Hebron and killed many of the Jews who fought for their lives and plundered all their belongings until not one refugee or survivor was left in the Land.
http://en.hebron.org.il/history/682

October 7th, 2023 was the last day of the holiday of Succoth.

Neither history nor massacres of Jews began in 2023.

On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants.

1220: tens of thousands of Jews killed by Muslims after being blamed for the Mongol invasion

1465: In Fez, pogroms after the discovery in the Jewish quarter of the tomb of the city’s founder, a descendant of Mohammed…; Jews are forced to move to the ghetto (11 Jews left alive)

The Attack on Safed occurred in Safed during the Ottoman-Mamluk War of 1517, shortly after the Turkish Ottoman Empire expelled the Mamluks and occupied the Levant.[...]Many Jews were reportedly killed, and others were reportedly injured or had their property looted. According to Gerson, Jews were "forced from their homes, robbed and pillaged, and fled naked to their villages without any food."

In 1660, serious violence erupted between the pro-Ottoman Druze and Druze rebels. Though the Jewish community was not involved, the local Arabs used the unrest as an opportunity to massacre the local Jewish population of Safed; similarly, the Druze enacted a pogrom against the Jewish population of Tiberias.

The violence began on July 24, 1834 when the forces loyal to Ibrahim Pasha of Egypt attacked the city of Hebron in order to crush the Peasants' Revolt and massacred the Jews while doing so.[...]In Hebron, the troops "vented their anger on the Jewish quarter which they pillaged with terrifying cruelty." He reports of the desecration of Torah scrolls and the decapitation of an aged sage, Rabbi Issachar Hasun, the cantor of Hebron, while he lay ill in bed. For twenty hours they "slaughtered European Jews and publicly raped their wives."

1834 - In Safed, a 33-day-long massacre took place at the hands of the local Arabs who took advantage of the power vacuum.[...]Witnesses described the horrifying violence, including the rape and slaughter of Jewish men, torture, the beatings of rabbis, the destruction and desecration of synagogues, and the looting of Jewish assets. Women and children were robbed of their clothes and fled naked to nearby fields until the violence passed.

Please explain why had Jews been massacred by Muslims throughout history since the dawn of Islam.

 

My post is based on NO premises. You would have known that if you read it. It's simply pointing out that if the conclusion the OP reached, regarding the motive for the October 7 attacks (see title), had NOT started with a pre-established conclusion, and then cherry-picking anything that confirmed it (ignoring everything that rebuts it), he would have come into those possible motives.

As far as the motive for THIS attack... who knows. Maybe THIS particular attack was done by some particular group of fanatics who were never affected by Israeli action in Gaza. It does seem very suspicious that, given the conditions TODAY in Gaza (not 1929, not 1517....) in which Israel (one of the top 15 military powers in the world) has basically isolated Palestinians, holds them imprisoned in their territory, and often "punishes" them with military action... or by simply cutting power and water... that this attack would be motivated, not because of that, but because of some passages in religious writings. Not impossible, but it doesn't hold up to even the most logical screening.

And your conclusion, as well as the OP's, is particularly suspicious given that even now that I have pointed these other conditions out to you, you refuse to consider them. So it's obvious you made up your mind that you believe it was ONE particular motive (logic would dictate the weakest of all) for this attack and you're not even going to address or even consider other possibilities.

 

I'll address your claims, even though it's a waste of bandwidth. None of your claims and all of them together, even if they were true, wouldn't lead sane people to commit atrocities on this scale.

Electricity: Israel doesn't cut electricity to Gaza, because Israel doesn't provide electricity to Gaza. Israel provides electricity to the PA. The PA provides electricity to Gaza, and when the PA doesn't pay the bills, Israel reduces the number of megawatts. Egypt provides free fuel for the power plant in Gaza.

After months of cuts, Israel to increase electricity to Gaza at PA’s request
On Wednesday, the Palestinian Authority announced it was to resume paying for its complete share of electricity for the Gaza Strip.

Water: only 10% of Gaza's water comes from Israel. Gaza has its own aquifer and solar-powered desalination plants.
https://www.unicef.org/sop/press-re...-final-phase-expansion-southern-gaza-seawater
https://www.emro.who.int/emhj-volum...re-review-and-consultations-with-experts.html

Imprisoned: Gazans can leave Gaza. Their problem is that no country wants them. Many dream of Europe, but Europe wouldn't have them.

Palestinian students arrive in Gaza after fleeing violence in Sudan
'172 students arrived in the homeland through the Rafah border crossing, as the first batch of students coming from Sudan'

King Mohammed VI of Morocco has ordered additional scholarships for Palestinian students through the Moroccan Agency for International Cooperation, the Embassy of Morocco told Report.

These scholarships, numbering around 100, will benefit Palestinian students originating from the Gaza Strip and enrolled in universities and higher institutes across various regions of the Kingdom.

 

You believe that reading a passage in some scripture would motivate somebody to commit atrocities more than a child, who at a young age saw his parents dead because of an attack by Israel, and sees NO hope of ever coming out of poverty, or their children even making anything of themselves in life, because Israel controls what and who comes in and out of Gaza.

Oh, what BS. Israel cut electricity and water to Gaza after October 7 for over a month! The terrorists don't care. They were prepared. It's the Palestinian PEOPLE Israel wanted to punish.

It is none of these thing alone. It's ALL of them together. Many of the children who lost their parents (who had NO interest in politics) are likely to be the terrorists. All of those who who lose a loved one every time Netanyahu attacks...

I ALREADY said that I don't know how much of these things weighed in. My POINT is that you are making up excuses. Any RATIONAL research of why the attacks happened (the topic in the title of the thread) would have included an analysis of these things.

Instead of that, you make up CRAP!

You and the OP have decided to ignore any part of reality that doesn't fit your pre-established conclusion. And there is nothing anybody can do or say when somebody decides to do that. But please don't call that "research" because it gives a bad name to those of us who, when we bring up something, we HAVE done our minimum due diligence.

 

Mohammed declared that all jews must be killed over 1400 years ago, when he was founding the Islamic religion. He decided he was God's prophet and all should follow him. The jews turned him down, so he called for their death, created a blood feud for it that is in the koran, taught to islamic children and continues to this day. That's why Hamas attacked Israel. That's why most Islamic nations have attacked and hate Israel. Anything else is posturing and propaganda.

 

Thank you for answering, and I assure you, you will not get an apology. My current guess is because they know when they post it that their claims are untrue, which is why no contrition where their errors are exposed.

Another point they will never answer. Israel fences them out, because they are terrorist killers, and so does Egypt, for the same reason.

But the anti-Semitic haters always pretend that the Egyptian barricade of Gaza doesn't exist.

NOW THAT’S A WALL: Egypt Shows Bribed Joe How to Secure a Border.

'The President of Egypt, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, who is sometimes mistaken for the President of Mexico,' doesn't want Gazans to enter Egypt, just as Israel doesn't want Gazans to enter Israel, and for the same reasons. 'It's something of a completely routine miracle how the mainstream media and the Global Professional Outrage Machine have both ignored' the Egyptian Wall between Egypt and Gaza.



El-Sisi: Gazan's 'aren't coming here to Egypt (or maybe Mexico)."

Video of Egypt's great wall at the link.

Gaza was part of Egypt for 20 years, but Egypt refused to take it back.

'King Hussein of Jordan gave sanctuary to Palestinians, and they thanked him with two assassination attempts. Like Egypt and Gaza, Jordan held the West Bank for 20 years but has adamantly refused to take it back. Palestinians were welcomed in Lebanon, where they immediately tried to overthrow the government.'

Bribed Joe Calls Netanyahu an A**h*** (But We Know Who the Real A**h*** Is)

 

Court Orders Netherlands To Halt F-35 Parts For Israel As EU Says "Too Many People" Are Dying

Borrell: "Well, if you believe that too many people are being killed, maybe you should provide less arms..."

The Anti-Semitic Left is sinking the knife into Israel's back.

'Interestingly, the court order threatens to disrupt a crucial US-supply chain pipeline of defense wares to Israel:'

Remove the Netherlands from our supply chain pipeline.

 

Their statement implies that there is an acceptable level of dying in a war.
Is it a rate? How many is too many, and tips the balance? Does it vary by which side it affects most? Does it have anything to do with justice, or the source responsible for the conflict?

War is a last resort, when negotiations aren't possible, and other alternatives are exhausted. The worst wars are the ones that drag on for years, or decades. They drag on, usually because decisive, overwhelming power that could end them quickly is held back. That is a judgment that is the polar opposite of the objective of defeating the enemy. The fast and overwhelming strike generally results in far fewer deaths than holding back. Israel probably knows that more than any other nation. It's why the 1967 war started by several arab nations around Israel- was over in a week. Holding back is why this one has gone on for 5 months. In that time, humanitarian conditions will of course worsen.

The bulk of the civilian death toll has to do with the fact that Hamas has integrated itself into the civilian population, into it's primary structures, cities and services. In most nations, a military facility is a secure compound at a distance from any city. In gaza, it's under the apartment buildings, schools and hospitals- and the civilians.

There are a lot of civilians in the war zone. However, Israel warned them of the attack, and asked them to leave the area in advance.
They are the same citizens that elected and support the government that planned and carried out perhaps the most heinous war crime in our lifetimes.
Gaza can end the war quickly with surrender of the Hamas, but that is not the only way.
The citizens of Gaza are not without any responsibility for the war, nor without power. The civilians could change their situation quickly too- by civilian surrender.
Cooperate with the Israeli forces. Give up the Hamas locations, the soldiers, the secret hiding places, the weapons stores.
The civilians know these things; there are too many people in too small a space not to. They do have a choice.

 

Well, if the rule is that all you have to do to prevent being attacked is embed yourself among civilians, then Israeli citizens should be perfectly safe, oh wait, Gaza deliberately slaughtered and raped unarmed civilians.

Proportionate response does not refer to getting even, it refers to the level of force necessary to achieve a legitimate military objective. Eliminating Hamas is a legitimate military objective, and Hamas is deliberately using civilians as human shields. Weird how we don't hear Leftists demanding that Hamas release their hostages and surrender to save civilians, rather, we seem too many on the Left demanding actions of Israel that will preserve Hamas as an anti-Semitic terrorist force.

Hamas Member Reveals That Organization’s Goal Is Not Just to Free ‘Palestine.’ “Leftists who are expressing their support for Hamas and hatred for Israel these days are likely neither to know nor care that Hamas has these aspirations, as they simply cannot imagine a world in which their Muslim allies would turn against them.”

'The video is of a hijabed woman, identified as “Elham, Member of Hamas, Planner of a Suicide Bombing,” explaining matter-of-factly that “we don’t only fight against occupation. Our goal is to spread Islam to all, everywhere.” Hamas would not be satisfied with a Palestinian state, but would continue its war against the diminished Israel that would remain after the creation of a Palestinian state until the remainder were Islamized as well. What’s more, Elham’s statement amounts to a declaration of war against every state that is not governed under Islamic law.'

 

And the message of the koran does say that Islam should rule the world, that a Muslim does a service to non-believers by killing them, and other nice sentiments like that.
Muslims sometimes say they have a religion of love and peace. The actions say they would love to eliminate all non-muslims because that is their definition of peace.
Kind of like a serial killer who tells you what a nice guy he is. It's true to say all Muslims are not like that- but they do follow their religion more intensely than any other I know of, and the acts of the radicals, which the moderates don't show objection to say it does constitute the core of Islam.

 

All I can do is evaluate their actions. The peaceful Muslims that respect the rights of others, I'm fine with. The ones that rape and murder young Jewish women, need to be handled by the military force.

 

Before I address your arguments, please tell me how you formed your opinions on Israel.

 

Looking at facts... ALL the facts. Both sides of the issue. And then following the raw facts to see where they would led me.

Read my sig!

This is a general answer that I hope applies to everything I write. I don't know what "opinions" in particular you are talking about.

 

How do you know the facts?

 

Any way I can. What is your point? Hopefully it's not some sort of "Deep State" conspiracy theory in which all the media is suddenly antisemitic.

 

You form opinions based on what you read and hear, then.

Palestinians in Gaza and many other Muslims all over the world have been reading and hearing the Quran and other religious writings and sermons all their lives. Why do you think that Muslims don't form opinions based on their religious writings?

 

Where the hell did you read that they don't? The queston is why do you think Muslims don't form opinions based on their parents (who might have never cared much about politics), or a child being killed in an Israeli attack? Or on Israel not allowing them from leaving the Gaza strip? Or on Israel controlling EVERYTHING that comes in and goes out? Or on Israel arbitrarily cutting power and water? Or on Israel not allowing humanitarian aid to come into the region?

I think opinions are based on ALL OF THE ABOVE. But some more than others. The reader will decide if a religious text would be a bigger motivator for these people than losing a loved one (for example) at the hands of Israelis. The OP states that the ONLY reason is religious text. And YOU came all the way into this thread to defend this.

 

Gaza invaded Israel and raped and murdered young Jewish women because they want to destroy all the Jews in Israel.

 

What motivated young European Muslims to join ISIS and commit atrocities against Yazidis, Christians, and other Muslims? How many of their children or parents have been brutally killed by Yazidis, Christians, or other Muslims?

What motivated al-Qaeda to commit terror attacks in Saudi Arabia? How many of their children or parents have been brutally killed by citizens of Saudi Arabia?

What motivated al Qutb, the extreme ideologue whose writings have inspired both organizations, to advocate violent jihad against Western countries? None of his relatives was killed by Westerners, and nobody bothered him while he lived peacefully in the US.

Hamas was founded in 1987 when Gaza was wide open, Palestinians traveled freely in and out of Israel, Israelis shopped in Gaza, and there were no fences and no restrictions. Why was Hamas founded then?

Why don't Ukrainians form terrorist organizations to commit atrocities against Russians? Why don't Hindus and Sikhs form terrorist organizations to avenge the deaths of their loved ones in terrorist attacks by Pakistani terrorists? Why didn't Cuban citizens form terrorist organizations to fight against the American embargo? Why only Gazans, alone in the whole world, would do that?

Please note that your assertion that Israel controls what comes in and out of Gaza is not true. Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Israel doesn't control that border.

Gaza gets only half of its electricity and 10% of its water from Israel.

The rest of your post doesn't deserve attention unless you can show interviews with terrorists and testimonies from Gazans supporting your point of view.

 

That's the type of questions that can only be answered with REAL research. Not by just assuming, like you and the OP do, that it's because of religion, and then cherry-pick passages from religious writings to justify the pre-fabricated conclusion.

To assume that they ALL had to have one and the same motive is, worse than binary thinking. It's one-dimensional thinking. It does NOT help solve the problem. Because that's the excuse that bigots like Netanyahu use to bomb them. But even if the main motive for some of them were religion, you are not going to change their religion by killing innocent people. You are just going to give those who would not use religion to become terrorists, OTHER reasons to join their ranks.

There is only ONE conceivable solution to the Palestinian conflict. One that has not been tried: a two-state solution. Don't bother using the conflicts before Israel took over Palestine as a red herring. A two-state agreement has NOT been tried. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work... and the world will just have to get used to Israelis and Palestinians killing each other for eternity. Because racial cleansing like the one Netanyahu wants has NEVER worked (as Israelis should know better than anybody). But we won't know until it has been tried.

And yet, that wasn't necessary for you and the OP to conclude that the motivation is religion.

I don't have a point of view. All I have is a methodology. If you can interview terrorists and witnesses, great. If you can't, you can investigate in other ways. But you must investigate. Not just exclaim "it's their religion!" and then cherry-pick anything that confirms the pre-established assumption while ignoring everything that doesn't.

 

I never said that the main motive for all of them was religion. It was a religious ideology.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2016/...logical-roots-and-political-context-pub-63746

Don't underestimate the power of utopian authoritarian ideologies. The communist experiment, for instance, proves how powerful such ideologies are. Early communists sincerely believed in Marxism and idolized Lenin.

Beliefs drive behavior. That's as true for ISIS members as it is for communists.

The OP didn't cherry-pick passages from religious writings. It quoted the Hamas charter.

The Oslo Accords. The second Intifada. Use google.

The OP didn't conclude that the motivation is religion. It just quoted Hamas' own words in their charter.

 

So religious ideology is not religion? Odd distinction. In any case, whatever it is, it's ONE motive. NO other motives are explored. That is still one-dimensional thinking.

I think a better example to make your case would be Trump. Because Marxism worked more like the way THIS might work (pending more research). Which is to take a condition of oppression that people were feeling and turn THAT into a religious following. Marx didn't have to convince people that they were poor. Just like nobody needed to convince Palestinians that it was Israel at the other side of those rockets that killed their child or their parents. Trump, on the other hand, DID turn bigotry into a cult following that has taken a life of its own. The threat in which Trump based his cult following is imaginary. But the threat that Palestinians see is real.

So do facts. This is the part that you discard too soon.

And it's the ONLY thing quoted to conclude that [quoting the OP] " Oct 7 attack was not Netanyahu conspiracy, was not response to Israel brutal occupation of Palestine or result of the hate of Palestinians to Israeli successful democracy – it is religious belief that Allah (believed to be the Most Gracious and the Most Merciful among Gods) demands Oct 7 type actions from every devoted mujahidin."

That, in any universe, is called "cherry-picking. Unless you claim they believe that because the ONLY religious writing they ever read was Hamas' chapter.

No! It did MORE than that! The conclusion is quoted above. You are AGAIN cherry-picking facts to justify a pre-fabricated conclusion. This time to defend some poorly done research. Please stop doing that and you will immediately see my point.

 

Hamas wants to genocide the Jews.

 

Religious ideology uses religious beliefs to shape and guide social and political behavior. A practical application of a certain interpretation of religious texts and traditions in everyday life. The Iranian theocracy is a perfect example of religious ideology at work.

Everything I know about Trump comes from a media that was already predisposed to either hate and ridicule or worship him. I don't like Trump, but there are many on your side I don't like either.

I mentioned communism for a very good reason. They were the godfather of Islamic terrorism. Driven by megalomaniac hegemonic ambitions, they spread hatred and fear of the West and Israel in the Muslim world for decades.

https://www.rferl.org/a/soviet-islamist-terrorism-israel-america-disinformation-pacepa/25034290.html

Following is an example of Russian antisemitic propaganda in the Arab world. The site is a Jordanian newspaper. I give you the link to the English version with Simple Translate and the link to the original Arabic.

https://www-addustour-com.translate...»?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en-US&_x_tr_hl=en-US

https://www.addustour.com/articles/1126027-أوراق-غير-متناثرة-في-«الصهيونية-الاستيطانية»