~why johnny (atheist) can't beleive ~ and the cure~

Thanks to all who have commented. In your own way, you are teachers of sort. And good ones. Threads like this one make a forum worthwhile. I've appreciated the perspective of each and every poster and found the individual experiences worth pondering in the constant thoughts about my own beliefs.

 

Interesting. I haven't seen many that have had an experience phenomena of sorts that led them away from christianity. Most say they have some experience that lead them to christinaity.

 

I am an atheist because I have seen a lot of atrocious behavior from Christians and other religious people, and also have many problems with some of the conflicts.

Here are the examples.

I was sent to a private school and one day this girl was caught masturbating. She was told she had to quite and people teased her mercilessly for weeks on end. Then it came to a point where the people got tired of her disobeying them and they beat her up because she still masturbated. She spent nearly a week in the hospital.

The reason? The bible says you must not spill your seed, or masturbate.

Now, one of my big problems i have is with the concept of free will.

I've been taught all my life that you have to blindly obey god and follow his rules to the letter of the law or you're going to go to hell and be tortured for all eternity.

I'm sorry, but that is not free will, and to me, it seems a lot like slavery.

And then there's the crap with radical Islam that's going on today.

There's many more that I can bring, but i think I've made my point. It's constantly going through crap like this that has turned me off of Christians and religion and God.

And to me, God seems like a comp-lete pyschopath who cares only aboput his own might and pwoer and forcing people down to their knees to obey and worship him.

And somehow, I just can't see him as being any different than Satan.

I'm sorry if this offends some people, but, these are my problems and why I am an atheist.

Why would i want to believe in and worship a being who is completely malevolent in every way?

 

I don't claim to know anything about things I don't know (like the origins of the universe) and I don't know any atheists personally who do. The only people I've ever come across who ASSERT (not just claim) that they know the origins of the universe are theists.

It's not obvious at all, to me - that 'something is out there'. I would submit that it's anything BUT obvious, given the wholesale lack of evidence for any kind of supernatural entities or activities. I submit also that our imagination is out there (which is why it's so great), and that this may be were the confusion lies.

 

If you give a cursory look its easy to find that there is evidence for the existence of GOD. My personal opinion and one that gets me in hot water with the orthodox clergy is that there is more evidence for an ID God who I call a GID (God the Intelligent Designer) than the God of the Hebrew bible. It does not matter because God is God, religion just attempts to clothe God with their own wraps.

I agree that there was and is official religions that represent entire nations right down to the corner church who use religion for control. However, as a Christian you are expected to recognize evil and corruption. The bible tells us how to ID false prophets and liars. In fact the devil himself has many names the most common being the father of all lies! became corrupted to the point of being control. So now that we know that, you might want to know that it’s a sin to use God for your own personal gain. Again that shows that Christianity is good if the bible is used as a guide. The real fault are those that corrupt the good book either intentionally or through ignorance.

Again that is not a true statement. Actually I titled this thread with a hook. The hook was this part; “And the cure”, lol. I learned that nefarious tactic of hooking readers from a newspaper editor. Nevertheless that part of the title does have some truth, more on that later. So what you wrongly I think, at least I believe in most cases the reason a Christian attempts to minister to unbelievers is out of love. By that I mean say you were teaching your best friend unassisted rock climbing. You ascend the 1000 ft cliff face first and encourage your friend to follow your lead. To your horror you realize he is making a fatal mistake in climbing, and falling to his death is certain if he continues. Do you do nothing? Stay silent knowing information you have could save him? No I am sure you would tell him and help him even if he is angry at first for you ruining his climb. Being a Christian is exactly like that. I learned to minister differently than preaching and do it by working in my non profit but still ministering is a act of love. Also God tells us we must as Christians minister to others because he loves unsaved more than we do or can because he loves with a supernatural intensity.

Again X 2 if you were a believer and knew your child was going to lose his soul* you would try to save them! *(I do not believe in hell like most traditional Christians)

Usually pastors are requested after the death of a loved one. Those that come uninvited have just witnessed what they see as a horrific loss of a loved one dying unsaved. So they are attempting to save who is left. Also they try to comfort the ones left behind and any reverend that has a degree must have a required amount of semester hours of psychology that is heavy on therapy and counseling the grief stricken etc.

The end will come as per prophesy. Look at the middle east following prophesy. Why would tiny Israel and the ME be the focus of world attention 2000 years after the bible tells us it would? The bible tells us Armageddon will begin in the middle east, and it appears CNN does too!

Don’t get me wrong. There are bad Christians there are ignorant Christians that mean well etc. But for every bad Christian there are hundreds of good ones. I would urge you to just keep an open mind. If you live long enough, sometimes it takes decades, you will find I am being truthful.


reva

 

Yes indeed the universe is so beatific' it does give me similar feelings I get when thinking deeply about God etc. I love to grab my binoculars and drag bogie (the basset) to the back yard to star gaze. There is too much light pollution to set up the telescope so the noculars' are used. Revelation via natures beauty was used as a catalyst by philosophers (and others I suppose) to visualize the mind of God. I do get your point, the nature of the universe is 'God' (of sorts) for you. What I couldn't stand and it bugged me to death as an atheist is what could cause the big bang to bang. If nothing existed before the big bang created time space and everything we have in the universe WHY did the universe begin to exist some 14b years ago? If TIME did not exist 'before' the big bang nothing temporal could have caused it to begin to exist. God is atemporal eh? Anyway...just sayin'

reva

 

Hi Jonsa. I do envy you and a surprising number of atheists being comfortable acknowledging there some things can not be proven. And the kicker; So you would rather not do guess work or speculation. That would drive me nuts. No sometimes I think that drive would not require a full tank of gas either! No I have to know, even in science, I have to know what is unknowable (at the present moment). Example what lies beyond the event horizon of a black hole. The only thing we know is we don't know lol, no we do know that all our physics break down and become useless , and there is agreement that time does not exist past the event horizon, and that not even light with its 670,000.000 mph velocity can not escape the gravity well of a black hole. That's about it. So I want to know. Emerging evidence is giving us a tiny nano peek but still we may never know the nuances of the interior or a BH.

Proven? What is proven to an accuracy of 100%? Nothing. Not even reality. lol, So you are correct. However we do have a smoking gun and its what I mentioned in an earlier reply in this thread. Its how did the universe begin to exist ie what caused the big bang to start? It had to be something unknown to science without physicality, it almost certainly is atemproal ie eternal because if it caused the big bang to bang it had to do so without the benefit of time and causality! Hmm what is eternal, and is not of this universe, and can cause a life giving universe to begin?

Why would a creator not give his creation some of its nuances? In his own image means having self awareness in my reading of scripture. God apparently has no real natural physical form, so his image means something else. The reason you have disdain I am guessing so please do not take offense, is because you do not believe, how can one respect or be in awe of something they do not think is real? . Even for theists and metaphysics who know more than most what God is like, still Its impossibly difficult to comprehend what God would really be like. So I do not think any or most atheists can do that. That inability is a key reason some atheists seem so militant towards God, its simply a myth or a construct to them. I am sure that attitude would evaporate if they stood before God and witnessed the power and somehow really knew Gods mind, and what it was all about. Me? Even though my arrogance and pride and temper is the last obstacles to knowing god still I have no problem worshiping and being subservient to God, because 'I know a little', remember that old southern rock song? .

If you respect that and I have no reason to think otherwise I have no problem. I respect the right of atheists, vampires, satanists, Muslims, ignorant Christians etc etc to believe anything they want as long as its nonviolent. I perhaps like you do not have to them or maybe I should say I don't have to like the sin (sin is anything against God etc) they indulge in. I love the person, that includes all people, but their acts are sometimes repugnant.


reva

 

I have never really questioned why more Christians live in the US by percentage because I assumed our country was founded on or to appease the nay-sayers was influenced heavily by 'Christian' ideas and principles. Of course we are influenced by our families and our peers. I do feel lucky to have been raised here in the USA. I was born in France but moved here before I was two.

Going to church is good business eh? If Buddhism had of turned my crank I would be a Buddhist now. What really turns my crank and the reason I began searching for something more powerful than I was to find 'truth'. Buddhism was the was the second major religion out of many I tried then rejected saving Christianity for last because I so disliked it and thought Christianity would be the least intellectual of all. Man was ignorant about that religion ! So that said I understand your choice and switching religion. Of course I wish you happiness although as an apostate christian you know I worry about your soul. If it works for you maybe you will be lucky and have another NDE where God tells you ; ‘A DEIST HUH??? REALLY? YOU DIDN’T KNOW THAT WAS ME SPEAKING TO YOU EARLIER’ ?

Ha! as I said before when I had an NDE I was a 'deist agnostic' and failing atheist…That Harley Davidson meets oak tree accident was so weird, and it had a feeling of unreality about it even as I lay in that ditch bones sticking out everywhere. Then I heard or felt this; “ DO YOU WANT TO DIE WITHOUT KNOWING ME?” I said no I want to know you (hoping like hell it wasn’t the other guy!).

Cool addiction is a rough row to hoe eh? Life becomes depressing always looking for something to feel better...man I do not miss that! I too was addicted to pain medicine after that NDE motorcycle crash. God didn’t help me…well you know I suffered full withdraw after I went cold turkey at the VA med center. I was taking u up to a thousand milligram a day (I knew an oncologist)of hillbilly heroin ie oxycotin and morphine IE. Damn maybe I was doing something wrong!

Well God bless you for your work. That’s an great story. Again thanks for sharing !

reva

 

[/QUOTE]
OK, so where is this evidence that you say I can see with a cursory look? I have an open mind, show it to me.

If that's true then Christians have been remarkably bad at it for a very long time,
The persecution of the Jews
The Spanish Inquisition
The Crusade's
Witch trials
Burning Heretics
I am sure you get my drift, all things that Christians got wrong, (I assume you do not defend anything I have listed, I would be very interested in your defence if you did) My country is littered with churches, every single one a testament to the power of the Church. Not God the power of the Church. Normal people, good people starved, died in wars and were killed in the making of this edifices of power. One day we will blow them all up to celebrate man's liberation from religion. So I have given you instances over 2000 years where following interpretations of the Bible was clearly wrong. So if as you say the Bible shows you how to ID false prophets and liars, why are Christians so bad at it?

So we never even made it out of the title of the thread and you are attempting to manipulate! Now I am not saying the "hook" was any big thing, but to me it is indicative of how quickly someone with good intentions and religion can make the ends justify the means. Have you asked yourself why you thought your God needed a "hook" to get people interested in your thread?
Your rock climbing analogy is in my opinion a very poor one, simply because you cite a very real danger. A much better analogy would be a friend who was having marital problems. Would I give unsolicited advice in that situation? Not a chance, if I had concrete proof that for instance, his wife was having an affair then maybe. But I would hesitate even then. You see I am very aware that I do not have all the answers, no 1 size fits all solution to every ones problems. My door is always open to my friends and I will attempt to give advice if asked and if I think I can help.

What could a child do to lose his "soul"? If there was a God who thought children could lose there "soul" I would spit in his eye and tell him to do his worse.

Yes I have seen first hand how pastors try to convince an atheist that her dead partner had died unsaved! How dare people like you intrude on a families grief with your repugnant beliefs. I decked the last dirty little vicar who tried to convince my mother that her partner of 40 years (who led an exemplary life) needed his "soul" saving.

You answered your own question, because the Bible says so and for 2000 years people have been fooled into believing it!. It may well be a self fulfilling prophecy unless enough intelligent people convince the "faithful" that Revelations in particular are just the ramblings are a half mad monk.

And there are good people and there are bad people, and for every bad one there are a hundred good ones. And that is my experience of life, and whether they are religious or not, or no matter what religion they follow THAT is the much simpler truth.

 

You see Tram that to me even as a Zionist Christian* is child abuse. And the beatings are a felony crime.

With all due respect I think you are interpreting scripture wrongly. And about free will, God knows to a high probability what you will do, you still can make a decisions. If God chose to know to an accuracy of 100% that would be a kind of slavery and useless to God. That is a simplified and shortened version of how we can have free will with predestination.

Islam is a good religion even though I can not agree with it because it’s a false religion IMO. Radical militant Islam has ruined the image of good non violent Muslims and Islam in general. I am sorry you have given up on God. Maybe later you will learn the truth about our religion and chose to give it a test drive.

If you knew God and believed God exists you would want to worship him. I wish I could do far more for God! I as john the Baptist am not worthy to tie the sandals of Jesus. Again we believe with out God there would be no hope for eternal life or the coming kingdom. So what if I am wrong? The only thing I will be guilty of is living my life trying to obey the teachings of Jesus. What if Christians are correct and God of the bible does exist?

Satan is a liar that wants only to harm man. So there is a bit of a chasm of difference because God wants to spend eternity with us and give us the love of a father in supernatural quantities and intensity.

Your statements do not offend me in the least. What offends me is a jerk that is ATTEMPTING to offend me by insulting God etc. I feel those are your true feelings and you are just being honest. But and I hope this doesn’t offend you; your ignorance (no insult ignorance means your knowledge of scripture etc is now good) of the bible and of God etc is keeping you from the truth, and that is the devil being successful in his plan for you IMO.


I hope the best for everyone that has commented. I have learned so much, and its all been good !

God bless this forum

Ugh’, Mondays!

View attachment 30029

 

That is the beauty of Christianity...one's version is the correct interpretation...the correct view of God's true intent. If everyone gets to make up their own rules, then there is no validity in any interpretation.

Christians want the freedom to believe as they wish...so be it. But they denounce any one or idea that questions or counters their belief.

 

Your statement here conflicts with the initial statement you made which I quoted:

While you have a right to your beliefs, those who "ASSERT" there is nothing beyond the natural Universe despite the obvious fact it came from somewhere are acting on belief not facts. A person with one set of beliefs telling someone else their beliefs are wrong is not logic, it's hubris.

 

Even rational arguments can lead to the wrong answer if they are based on invalid assumptions. In this case, the definition of "God" itself.

When you think of what may have preceded the Bing Bang, you'll understand the problems with Kalam's cosmological argument. If there was another universe before this one (a cyclical universe), then the end of that universe would be sufficient cause to begin this one. If this is the only universe (my personal preference), then there was nothing before it. Not the nothing we commonly imagine, that's just empty space, but true nothingness. No matter, no energy, no space, no time. Once you make time a property of the universe itself, then the universe becomes logically necessary, since at no time did the universe not exist. Therefore the universe is eternal despite having a beginning and no first cause is required.

 

The cyclical universe theory doesn't jive with current observations. http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang_bigcrunch.html

Why should a belief that the Universe just suddenly popped into existence out of nothing for no reason at all be any more valid than a belief that it was the Great Turtle or God?

 

OK, so where is this evidence that you say I can see with a cursory look? I have an open mind, show it to me.[/quote]

Google these key words; Craig KCA, ontological argument Cosmological argument for the existence of God. And google or bing this; Theism supports the big bang.

By doing that you can read the pro and con making your own decisions of what to read. If you want, I can provide the web sites that I like (Heh’~ Heh&#8216, just kidding if there is too many quack sites I will give you some good stuff.

Today most Christians support the Jewish nation and the chosen people, that would be the Jews. Some don’t feeling that the Jewish Pharisees murdered Jesus. They did sure help the ‘prosecution’ along but Jesus murdered Jesus. Zionist Christians RABIDLY and I would militantly support Israels people and the nation. Thata said I do not support any criminal acts by Israel el at that are hers by proxy physical or supernaturally. Sorry to go into all that but I have to lest I usually get accused of all sorts of bad things. Lastly, out of curiosity what exactly were you referencing when you referenced “The persecution of the Jews“?

Did you know many Christians were murdered by the inquisition. And try this on;

From the web ;

Despite popular myth, the Church did not burn heretics. The Truth About the Spanish Inquisition
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0075.html

Last on this at least there are many instances of false prophets running amuck and using fabricated and added to scripture to authorize torture and other horrors. Where does the bible does it say its OK to torture confessions out of people. Hint; NOWHERE.

One thing the Politically correct* left wing bigoted college professors don’t mention in your first college level course is that the crusades preceded eight hundred years of Muslim aggression! The crusades didn’t Just happen! I would wager this is the first you have heard of that eh? Well I did a thread on it recently. Anyway the Crusades were justified at least the first one was undeniably.

* ‘Politically Correct’ is defined here in this thread as usually 18>40 year old ‘want to be popular’ ‘would do anything to be included in the in crowd’, perps that make a life of hating Christian*s usually white protestant males, that also despises the success of the USA that Loves (Karl) Marxism and often uses hug brackets on those involved in radical Islam… type people. Hows that for a long sentence. It might be bad grammar but it sure made me feel like I just took a backed up for a week crap! Ha ha… I think the lack of sleep is making me silly lol,. campuses on the USA forgets to mention in history 101

Again not an act of Christianity rather false prophets claiming Christianity committing criminal acts. Where in the bible does God command we burn witches? HINT IT DOESN’T!

I get your drift my friend but your drift has no or very little basis in fact.


I did not mount a defense rather I just pointed out the errors and why I thought your sources and therefore most of your claims were wrong. Sorry but IMO most of the examples you referenced are hearsay and nefarious attempts to discredit Christianity that have been floating on the web for decades

Lol, ROTFL, really are you serious? Mans liberation from religion? Oh noooo! Sinister ministers running amuck!! The sky is falling! No seriously, to be liberated that means you have to be a captive somehow. Tell me please how are you a captive? Are the captive atheists a special species that are so weak they can’t turn off a TV when religious program offends? Really! Ok brace yourself; ‘’I am afraid atheism has a far better chance of self-destructing itself than the worlds religions
Have of going away voluntarily.

Oh my it never stops coming. Ok didn’t you read any thing I wrote? A hook has nothing to do with God. I do not think God answers every or even most requests. And remember, I said a hook is a well known method, a literary device that gets more people to read. Also the cure is going to be another thread, but I did not know what it might contain until the members weighed in with their beautiful comments. However it was ethical, but I admit still it was a little trickish’

Dang you don’t like too much about my thread do you? LOL what about the free food ? I even feed atheists! Seriously, the reason I used rock climbing was the very reason you DIDN’T like it!! Losing ones soul IS worse than dying? What does a man gain if he has the whole world but loses his soul? But I do understand your thought processes. To you God isn’t real and its very difficult to envision or get a good visually understanding about any scenario that Includes god.

The difference is in the analogy. I used certian death example for a reason. I will get back to that first be aware I do not push religion in a traditional fire and brimstone way. That is I do not ACTIVELY or loudly attempt to convert or minister to anyone who does not ask. A religious or for that matter any truth needs only to be whispered. Planting a seed is a silent activity. So we Christians should not push or browbeat anyone. So now you may see why I used the analogy of warning about certain death to someone that may be unaware he is about to become a falling object !

That was a quasi-typo. I was thinking about God looking at us like children. So the climber friend was the child I was thinking about…brain fart that!

Man you are a brave one huh ? Well I like to think I would make someone have the major role in a snuff film if he was forcing me to convert to Islam for example..

You insert you foot in mouth if that is indeed your foot and not another appendage,, like well...a hand, or maybe a finger, or elbow lol.. because you are so totally blinded by your unfounded hate of Christians. So instead of criticizing me for what you want me criticize me for a good reason. You have none. I guess that is why your reduced to grasping at virtual straws. What I really said was that I do the opposite of what most pastors do when helping people deal with grief. REALLY my misguided fellow, attempt to actually read what I said before making a fool out of yourself by wrongly slandering me ? And some advice. Get some help with that anger. I would wager I have seen things that you could not handle, and yes it wasn’t easy to cope. That level of hate would destroy anyone.

Again, you are so brave. Settling ones emotional conflicts by violence solves nothing.

Its revelation (Of John) not revelations. That said revelations are written in a literary style called apocalyptic writing and so it sounds a bit mad. It takes a bit of learning to understand the prophetic books so I am not surprised you find them so difficult etc. For example
You forget that much of prophesy of Daniel, revelation has been fulfilled

? That must be a mystery answer!

In any case time to get busy, I am cooking tonight….

God bless this forum and allow me to say God loves you and I am trying to… lol just kidding, please don’t beat me

Up~





Reva

 

s

Yes you are correct! Have you noticed how intensely the atheist physicists are working to overthrow the very theory that they created! The big bang was so well loved by nearly 100% of all scientists for decades. Then they began looking for theories that could eliminate the 'singularity' allowing the universe to begin to exist. After its theistic implications became apparent the hunt was on!. Its fun to watch them scurry around, forgive me Jesus for finding comfort in their discomfort. The empirical evidences that you site concluded via new satellites like COBE (may be wrong name lol) and new techniques tells us there is not nearly enough mass in the universe for gravity to slow, then stop, then reverse the universes expansion! That was great news to scientists and lay people that was holding their breath hoping the creation point would remain. It did end of story! According to the information the universe will expand 'forever' dying a heat death with even black holes evaporating in the unbelievably distant future. That is with the disclaimer that no emerging evidence / discoveries changes the stories and guesses of science. Lastly a thought; On a serious note its possible that our universe might have began to exist because of the covert doings the scientifically validated Flying spaghetti monster! Yep...a theory of science tells us that everything we can imagine can and has or does exist. HEY...that would include God right? Am I serious? You all tell me if I am correct... ok?

reva

 

Why would one worship a God who orders infanticide?

 

You're just making stuff up now. Your fantasies of what scientists are thinking exists entirely within your own mind. I'm sure most scientists couldn't really care less about theories about the beginnings of the universe (certainly not professionally) since it'd have zero impact upon their own work.

Frankly, your apparent desire to make science and scientists appear silly just to apparently shore up your own faith is unbecoming at best. You're capable of better.

 

I was probably about 8 or 9 at Sunday school asking the unanswerable question, "why doesn't god protect children from bad people like hilter?" They couldn't even bs me at that age, that's when I stopped going to church...

some would have answered god doesn't interfer in humainties squabbles...okay but why does god not prevent earthquakes that kill hundreds of thousands, the earth is his design surely an all powerful being could've done better, what did those innocents do to deserve his wrath and disdain?...meanwhile this all powerful being has the time to award superbowl wins and oscars on a chosen few celebrities who thank him profusely for his benevolence...

believers choose overlook such inconsistencies is what faith is all about, religion has nothing to do with logic, reasoning or fact...

 

The website's pages have a copyright date of 2009. It has only one item in its list of sources dated as recent as 2011. Buyer beware. It's hardly the current word on whether the universe is flat, open, or closed.

The speed of our universe popping into existence and expanding should not seem daunting in view of the idea that we are a subset of nested systems operating at successively faster speeds. If you think about it, nested speeds are undeniable. A particle traveling at the speed of light could orbit the earth seven times in one second. It could have done all that while you barely lifted a finger.

 

So your God is different from the majority of christians also. There seems to be a lot of those types in these forums.
Most all of christian's God is omnipotent and omni everything. So to those christians, it is NOT a high probability, God knows exactly what every single person will do every nanosecond of every day.

 

you are expressing a major aspect of what I believe the purpose of sentience is. To know and understand to the best of our ability. It is the urge to control our environment and transcend the limitations of our evolutionary design.

My favourite reading genre is sci-fi where speculation is inherent. I merely reject speculation based on any supernatural force, location or entity.

I completely agree that what came before the big bang is unknowable because it is completely outside our universes existence. I could very well have had physicality, it could even have had its own space/time - just not our version.

Attributing this "unknown" the label of god or creator is perhaps understanable in the context of human nature, since it smacks of anthropomorphism. Unknowable is unknowable and all attempts at defining such are nothing more than intellectual and/or spiritual masturbation. that is not to say that it should not be pursued, merely that any results are likewise nothing but a prophylactic as pleasurable as it may be.

To me those "nuances" leave a helluva lot to be desired, human nature being what it is and all.

My distain is for the "nuance" of our conceit. Not for the act of believing. My distain is for definitive speculation and deliberate ignorance that appear to be the main ingredients of religious dogma. Not for the person who accepts it.

Personally I don't think I have any trouble in "comprehending" what an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent entity could be like. I believe it would be a total enigma, so far removed from our experiences and senses, as to be completely incomprehensible. That is one of the reasons why I have such distain for religious dogma. It is nothing more than man's puny attempt to define the undefinable within the finite restrictions of his comparatively insignificant intellectual and emotional capacity.

I firmly believe in the golden rule.
I do not believe in the concept of sin, but surely do believe in the concepts of crime and consequence of action.

I most definitely do not love all people. Pedophiles, murdering rapists/religious fanatics/ideologues, get no love from me, in fact I advocate removal from the gene pool at the earliest opportunity. According to some religious dogma, that makes me "evil" and hard hearted - I can live with that.

 

That's why I don't support it.

In order for something other than the universe to have caused it, time needs to be separate from the universe, otherwise there is no moment when the universe didn't exist for something to act in creating it. Since current observations show that time is an inherent property of the universe itself, an uncaused universe is the only reasonable option.

 

Google these key words; Craig KCA, ontological argument Cosmological argument for the existence of God. And google or bing this; Theism supports the big bang.

By doing that you can read the pro and con making your own decisions of what to read. If you want, I can provide the web sites that I like (Heh’~ Heh‘), just kidding if there is too many quack sites I will give you some good stuff. [/QUOTE]
You might want to read up on Quentin Smith's response to William Craig's ontological and cosmological arguments.

http://infidels.org/library/modern/quentin_smith/causation.html
http://infidels.org/library/modern/quentin_smith/self-caused.html

 

I'm an atheist because I argue against religion, mostly organized religion but religion in general. When I argue against racism or sexism I am never labeled an aracist or asexist. Even though like religion these examples are things that grant one power or at least attempt to they have been determined by society to be unacceptable, this is why no one is given a label when they reject them. Same can be said from another perspective when talking about bigfoot or the lochness monster. We don't label people for rejecting these claims and it's not because they are more absurd than religious claims, in fact it's quite the opposite. The reason we don't label people for rejecting claims of bigfoot or the lochness monster is because those claims are not attached to an unquestionable power that has ruled over man for most of it existence via those who claim knowledge of that power.

There is a stigma attached to religion that has made it taboo to criticize even in the eyes of many non-believers and that stigma has everything to do with the power mentioned above.

Being an atheist is a very interesting thing because the only time I think about it is when I have to explain why I don't believe in someones god. In other words I'm not the one concerned with my being an atheist, it's not something I have to think about. What I am is a person who values intellectual honesty, reason and evidence. I don't choose to argue against religion because I just decided one day to hate it or something, I argue against it because after many years of discussing politics, society and the future of humanity I realized there was one topic that was attached to everything, one issue for most people that would trump any decision made no matter how reasonable or how much evidence supported it and it would do it by necessity. I argue against religion because it values credulity, it is blatantly intellectually dishonest and it demands respect without having to earn it.

People love to claim that religion is personal and yet when looking to earthly issues that need to be solved we always have to stop and see what someones god thinks about it first.

In fact I would love someone to make a list of the most important issues at hand today around the world but only include the ones in which religion plays no role on any level and see where that conversation goes.

This debate is nothing more than an attempt by secularists to clear the table for a better conversation.