Why MLK was NOT Christian

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Warm Potato, Jul 26, 2020.

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Do You Believe MLK was a Christian?

  1. YES

    15 vote(s)
    83.3%
  2. NO

    3 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Paywall.

    America manages coexistence between religion and governmnt/economis by drawing a very strong line between religion and government/economics. It's not that our government/economic system is more compatible with the religious majority.

    Our founders saw that separation as critically important - an absolute requirement. And, the religion they were concerned about was Christianity. Our system doesn't point to Christianity and capitalism being particularly compatible - it points to it being important that there is a strong separation.

    Let's get real. Communism fails because of its definition. And, tyrannical leaders need to be reduced because of their tyrannical leadership, regardless of the economic system they choose or the religious views they espouse.

    Surely the "godless communism" trope is a purely political bit of nonsense - an attempt to rally America in some way that is beneficial to some political constituency.
     
  2. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not only dead - but useless - as per James 2 - and repeated oft with example given of exactly what he is talking about. So offended was Heir Martin Luther - that Marty suggested James be removed from Canon - cause it didn't fit with his ideology.

    The author of James 2 is speaking out against some segment of Pauline Christians that were promoting such an idea - but what we do have on James - which is precious little - is James 2 sounds like something he would say .. hands down.

    The leader of the Church of Jerusalem was not a fan of some of Paul's doctrine - but - if gentiles could join in the movement - we can make some concessions .. such as the circumcision thing .. specific legalize ....

    But in terms of how one is Saved - James certainly did not believe in that brand of Pauline doctrine. It should also be pointed out that this group does not necessarily represent the beliefs of all of the Pauline Christians at the time .. while Paul trends the direction of Sola Fide - he does not completely abandon works .. As per Romans 3 ? top of my head and too lazy to look up... where he talks about how at the end of days men will be judges by their secrets ... The Jews first .. and then the Gentiles .. the Jews by the Law - the Gentiles - not having the law - are judged by the law that they have upon their conscience.

    Sounds like Paul had a little more than faith being a free pass on his mind at Judgement day.

    but who cares about Paul - a Fellow who did not know Jesus - hear his teachings directly - and was not part of the Church of Jerusalem - didn't even turn Christian until years after Christ's death ..

    Paul's writing does not give us any details about the life of Jesus -

    We then have to defer to the Jesus of Mark and Matt and exclude John... to answer the question of faith vs works - and James 2.
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, Matthew's recounting in chapter 25 certainly ensures the serious importance of works.

    But, I haven't seen a claim that John was wrong about salvation requiring an explicit acceptance of Jesus as ones personal savior.

    It seems to me that the Bible is pretty clear about both being required.

    How god would parse that on judgement day hits me as an issue that we can not answer. How much failure will god tollerate before a soul is rejected? Is racism (clearly a sin) without repentance acceptable to god? Will rich people who don't sell their stuff and give to the poor get into heaven even after what Jesus said to the "rich man"?
     
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  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I didn't say the the author of John was wrong per say - what I said was that it was not relevant to the faith/works discussion -with respect to James 2.

    The reason for this is that the Gospel of John is a Pauline Hellenist Fusion work - written after the Pauline branch of Christianity took over- and to the victor goes the history books :)

    This is a problem if one accepts the claim that "James" - brother of Jesus - Leader of the Church of Jerusalem - did not accept Pauline Doctrine in this respect - and in fact went out of his way to condemn the "Faith alone" crowd in no uncertain terms - as per the depiction in James 2 - which - in many respects is a very short summary of the Sermon on the Mount.

    Good luck finding me a faith based salvation formula in Mark - Matt - as in "Faith is Required" - Faith in the teachings of Jesus Yes -and then living one's life on the basis of those teachings as best one can - remembering that perfection is not required. but not "Faith that some God sent Jesus as a human sacrifice" - that is not required in Matt - Mark.
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Great comments - I had forgotten about the issues of Paul - and that goes double for James, as I doubt I ever studied that.
     
  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Consider the first paragraph of James 2

    "My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?"
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James 2&version=NIV

    Sound familiar ?


    Paraphrasing Matt 7:12 - do unto others - "Rule that Sums up the Law and the Prophets"

    Not every rule of Jesus has such accolade's "Love Neighbor as self" a restatement of this rule - as is Judge not - lest you be judged - and you will be judged !!! - let ye who is without sin - cast the first rock :)

    He then asks the question directly -

    What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?" Can such faith save them? "

    The answer that follows is a resounding and forceful NO - giving reasons and examples why "Faith Alone" can not save people ... going as far as to say that those who adhere to such doctrine are "Foolish"

    verse 20 "You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?

    Not mincing their words here - this author is addressing a very specific ideology that was being held by at least some Christian sects - keeping in mind this is a world prior to the destruction of the Temple - and there are many different and diverse Christian Sects - the Main one not being the Pauline Branch - the Church of Jerusalem is the authority - Paul leads some movement among non Jews that seems to have gained a following.

    The disciples are out preaching to the lost Tribes of Israel - for around 30 years - and are then all martyred round 60-65 - round the same time when the Gospel of Mark comes out.

    And this makes some sense - the last Pillars of the Church of Jerusalem have now all died (John ?? -presumed by many to have been martyred) need to have some record - and presumably Mark was written by an interpreter for Peter - and that is as close as the story gets to the Real Jesus - in terms of Authorship.

    Matt uses all of Mark - sans a few passages he doesn't like which depict Jesus and/or the disciples negatively. - and adds a few things - of completely unknown authorship - suggested that the material added came from some alternate ancient source.

    So that's what we have - Mark- Matt - and Matt is written some 20 years after Mark - after the destruction of the Temple round 70 AD.

    From this time on - the Jews become pariahs - the "Fiscus Judaicus" - you can wiki it :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscus_Judaicus

    It is 30 to 50 years after the destruction of the Temple that the Author of John is writing - 100- 120 AD - and is very anti Jewish in tone- as is Luke - as we would expect given the politics of the day. This us unlike Matt/Mark - which are not anti Jewish in tone.

    The Church is distancing itself from anything Jewish ..

    http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Fiscus Judaicus.pdf and you can read on about the history at that time if you like.

    It was during this period that John was written - and for this audience.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  7. Resistance101

    Resistance101 Banned

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    Even when I quote the sentences from articles verbatim and leave the link, the same questions are being repetitively asked. So, what is the point of constantly rehashing the same crap if all you have to do is read the freaking thread?
     
  8. Resistance101

    Resistance101 Banned

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    Our original economic system was based upon biblical principles. That is what made us great... at least in part.
     
  9. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Whats the point of robbery - when nothing is worth taking - throw your safety overboard - and join our insect Nation.

    Stand and Deliver - Your money or your life - try to use a mirror - not a bullet or a knife

    But even though - you fool your soul - your conscience will be mine !

     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
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  10. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm not here to judge MLK. I'm not sure what he believed. Christians are defined by the NT. If one says Jesus is not the Christ, or God in fleshly form, then that person is the spirit of "anti-Christ". Just because one might spend his nights in a garage, does not make him a car.
     
  11. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Baptism does not make one a Christian. It is merely a sacrament or ritual demonstrating what has taken place in ones heart. Belief is the only thing, by the Grace of God, that makes Salvation happen. It is not of works. (Baptism is a work)
     
  12. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Unitarianism believes all mans efforts to reach God are equal and valid. They are all made up stories. These are not Believers.
     
  13. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They call those folks Unitarians. They are not followers of Jesus. We follow Jesus because He is alive. They do not accept that.
     
  14. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    According to the fairy tale in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, in order to be an actual Christian (or christian per your opinion) a person MUST believe that the Jesus character died and was physically resurrected. That is the cornerstone of Christianity per the Bible.

    https://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1corinthians15&version=ERV;CEV;NLV;NKJV;NLT
     
  15. StillBlue

    StillBlue Well-Known Member

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    All that boils down to there is no point in being baptized and having faith unless you believe there is a Heaven. It's actually a good point, why strive for perfection in an afterlife if you do not believe that there is an afterlife. Risen from the dead can be nothing more than a metaphor for went to Heaven.
     
  16. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    Actually, it's been that way for roughly 1900 years.
     
  17. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Whatever way you want to present it is fine with me because it doesn't dilute my statement about Christianity. But I have lived in Africa so don't even try to tell me that baptism is in any way non-significant in "becoming" a Christian. It is that event which is regarded as the making of a Christian. You know very well it's true.
     
  18. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    False. Very few things in life can be appraised in such a limited, "for" or "against" fashion.
    No. The "point" is in the perks/privileges. Is there a point in homosexuals getting married? Of course there is. It's in the perks.

    Where is it stated that the pursuit of "perfection" is a given?

    Maybe, yes. But it wasn't god who put the notion up in the first place so it doesn't make the slightest bit of importance what the author meant by it. It's a fairy tale. Maybe Hanzel took a slice of cake and left a trail of cake crumbs instead of bread crumbs .... bread being a metaphor for any bakery goods that could afford him with crumbs with which could be strewn along the foot-path back home.
     
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  19. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by 'concerned about'? The Founders assumed us to be a Christian nation, and wanted to foster Christianity wherever possible while not violating the conscience of others. They they say 'religion' they mean 'Christianity'. The 'Creator' from whom our rights come wasn't Allah.

    Atheism wasn't the sole reason for the crimes and 100,000,000 body count of Communism, but it was a necessary one. Mass murder happens when you believe there are no eternal moral standards or rewards and punishment, that man is a cosmic accident of no more intrinsic worth than a dog, and that man is the highest power.
     
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  20. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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  21. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your perspective is based solely on the "traditions of man", no what is explained in the NT. Do you even recall the thief on the cross next to Jesus who believed? He had no baptism (other than perhaps the baptism of the Holy Spirit) He believed and Jesus told him "tonight you will be with me in Paradise!" It does me no good to debate with one steeped in the traditions of man. I don't care if you are from Africa. If you are blind to the interworkings of the Spirit of God, it does no good,
    Baptism in water IS significant to the workings of the Church as a public testimony of faith. It has nothing to do with the rebirth of "spirit".
     
  22. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That last quote you attributed to me has nothing to do with anything I ever said. CORRECT IT!!
    If you claim to know Better than what is declared in the Word of God.....there is no use for discussion.
     
  23. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Many will go along with anything at all on their death-bed. It’s like the gambler who’ll disregard all of the tips he’s had on the race and choose to believe the last one, just before the horses are released.
    What does this have to do with what I said? If you are trying to debate what I said about “baptism” then you are way off the path of discussion.
    Again, what does this have to do with anything? I think you are having trouble following the dialogue.
    What’s the point of this statement?
    There is nothing to correct. If you don’t understand it I can explain it for you but there is nothing to “correct”.
    Show me what god has said (not what some primitive, superstitious crack-pot has said) and I will respond in complete earnestness. As long as you provide what I ask of you then I promise to do as I said. That's a guarantee and you won't find a more sincere proposition than that.
    Yes. Of course. It is the "traditions of man" that lie at the heart of religious commitment. This is why the term "the chosen people" is attributed to the Jews and no one else. It is the covenant between them and the Creator of their own fundamental, retail, one-on-one relationship with god, those guidelines that Christians (and all others who followed) have forsaken for expedient, short-cut forgeries of faith and wholesale, blasphemous deception. It is the Jews who've set the parameters of faith by DIRECT association with god. Christians sent in a snake-oil salesman to try side-stepping the covenant that the Jews established long before Jesus was conceived.
     
  24. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Eve was the first one to think that was a good idea, and here we are.
     
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  25. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for revealing yourself. Don't think I am going to waste another minute debating with a mocker on "what is a Christian".
     

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