Why we dont want religion in schools. Florida school now allows satanic material.

In that context yes. But showing bias, or indoctrinating is not the schools job, nor is it appropriate.

 

I don't see the big deal. Allow one, allow them all. I am a Christian, BTW, but I believe that freedom of religion is the basis of all of our freedoms. If you can restrict religion, you can restrict anything.

If my kids had brought home Satanic stuff from school, it would be a teachable moment.

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Nice strawman, but I'm a conservative and I believe whole-heartedly in A. The other two interfere with religion.

 

That said, my public profession of my faith is not an example of me forcing my religion. The only limitation is on what government does. The government cannot interfere with religion, nor can they push a certain religion. I'm allowed to push my religion in public--you're allowed to tell me to buzz off. The government cannot interfere with that.

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Nobody is suggesting that the schools teach the religion. Basically, all that is being done is that religious materials are being given to students by outside groups. That's far from establishment of or attempting to indoctrinate in a religion.

 

That is fundamentally unConstitutional. The Constitution clearly states that we have freedom of worship. It also clearly states that religious discrimination of office holders is not allowed.

Now, if you choose to do that by your votes, go for it. Just don't make it a law.

 

Argument: a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.

You just made me laugh. But really, that's not the extent of the list. Nor are conservatives even close to monolithic on this issue. That's the funny thing about conservatives. We really are a far more conservative than liberal country, but liberals agree on nigh every issue - conservatives certainly don't.

you made a funny

But, to your actual point - I agree. Schools should be free of religious indoctrination. That does not, however, mean that schools should be free of religion.

 

This reminds me of the story from a year or so ago....


a Louisiana Republican who pushed for vouchers for LA kids to go to religious schools, was suddenly "shocked" when she learned that the kids could use the vouchers to go to...


Muslim schools.

One good thing about American Theocrats....they're not a very smart bunch.

 

Religion belongs wherever Americans want it. Their Freedom to practice it is CLEARLY STATED in the 1st Amendment.

Deal with it. It's called "Freedom"...why do you hate it?

 

So you'd support Muslim kids evangelizing to their fellow students in school to become Muslims, right?

 

Everyone needs some satanic studies, otherwise democrats wont make any sense.

 

yeah I can remember a time school started with morning prayer...why?, what was the point of inflicting that pain and embarrasment on non christian kids, are christians so niave to think that was going to convert us?...my non christian classmates despised the prayer time and resented it being forced upon us...If christian parents are so concerned with morning prayer do it at home, I didnt want to share in their hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo and neither do my kids...religions, taught as part of world social awareness is ok, it's good to make kids aware of the effects of religion on society and politics ...instruction/indoctrination should restricted to the home and church of their choice...

 

As long as it is their free time, JUST LIKE THE CHRISTIAN KIDS.

I don't have to "support" them, to recognize their right to do so.

Just a matter of time before they start pushing violence against non-muslims, which YOU WILL SUPPORT, and try to pretend is "muslims' right" to do so.

 

As long as the Christian kids are allowed to do the same, yes.

 

To what extent? There's not much to be done about religious private schools indoctrinating gullible youths, but I'm sure we agree that this has no place in public education. There does need to be a certain degree of freedom from religion and all that it entails available to kids. Otherwise we're descending into some kind of strange, unofficial theocracy.

So, to what extent, then, do we permit religion to remain in schools? It doesn't bother me if a student wants to wear something religious, be it a Jesus shirt, an ornamental crucifix, a head scarf, a pasta strainer ... Whatever. Schools aren't there to try and eradicate religion, either. But, I see religious instruction or, say, prayer at some school function, as being entirely inappropriate.

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Oh yeah, kids should be free to talk about whatever they want.. There are certain reasonable limits to that, of course, but kids wanting to discuss or argue about whatever faith they've been indoctrinated into by their parents and parishes should be perfectly free to do so.

 

And that is one reason I don't want it hanging around the libraries in Middle School or Grade School. There just isn't a lot I want to censor from a High School kid. If 16-18 year olds cannot handle most any idea, in most any format, and manage not to faint, stab someone, or molest a classmate after reading Homer , Shakespeare, Stephen Crane, we got a lot bigger problems than biblical passages being quoted.

[Personal rant beginning. Feel free to ignore]

We have got to accept the idea that high school is the time when American youth NEED to be exposed to the very ideas most animical to their parents. Yes that means we liberals have to endure a conservative civics or history High school teacher actually expressing his opinions without us threatening to run to the principle. It means social conservative parents might have to tolerate a few pro-choice comments coming out of the mouth of the Health teacher and it may mean a gay teacher no longer has to hide the picture on his desk of his partner, or that another teacher says gay parades are disgusting.

I recognise that there is a constitutional separation for matters of religion, but even SCOTUS decision has noted that the age of the student body exposed is relevant in determining the the court's tolerance for religious symbols etc. We have to grow up, if we expect our youth to.

 

I just responded to this same concern expressed by another in Post # 64.. I want you to understand my position. There is a huge gap in what we should tolerate in a grade school or middle school and High school / college. We do a major disservice when we get too 'pc' in our last opportunity to expose all our youth to the breadth of ideas out there. That means High school is it for those not college bound. they need to be reading Mein Kampf, Karl Marx, and some speeches of Malcolm X, and George Wallace.

 

Religion belongs in churches not science classrooms. Sorry. Teach your religion along with all the others in world culture classes.

Science seeks reason and explanation, creationism just say "God did it." That is in no way science.

 

How is forced onto people? Easy. When you have a teacher preaching to kids and telling them this and that religion is the only true religion or god. Its a very easily identifiable form of coercion and bullying from the palpate. It creates, in many communities, an environment that excludes those individuals that feel or believe differently. It makes them a target among peers of their own age to be seen as holding a different faith than the larger group.

So again, you can keep trying here but these arguments are old and have been seen and ruled on by the supreme court and come out against the attempt of religion to weasel its way into schools.

No ones saying omit it from history, we are saying you can't teach the bible in school. If these young minds are interested in the actual tenants of the religion they can research them outside of school, not in history class. We aren't gonna have bible study in history or science class. Sorry, keep dreaming.

The hobby lobby case is literally a company saying because we have this religion we don't believe in these practices. So we aren't going to allow our employees to have medical coverage for them either. It is them directly forcing their religious views onto employees through selective health coverage. What if employees don't hold that same religious tenant? Oh wait...to bad they still can't do anything about it because their religious beliefs don't count..only their employers...right?

 

Excuse me? Did you even read what you just wrote? They came here to escape the state forcing them into religious practice they did not believe in or want.

So now you justify...forcing others into religion they don't believe in...by siting the establishment of America..which was to freely practice religion and be free from a religion they didn't agree with?

Can you not keep these things straight in your head?

 

I have no problem with private citizens try to proselytizer. Go right ahead.

But not teachers who are on public school grounds. You are being paid by the state/city/federal government. You play by federal government non-establishment rules.

I'm talking more about the insistent attempt at pushing creationism into public school science classrooms.

 

I asserted in my post #65, that in a SCOTUS majority opinion, the age of the students being exposed was one of the relevant criteria it looked to. the potential negative impact and the peer pressures are very different in 3rd grade than 12th. My problem is I can't recall which SCOTUS decision I read it in. Could be a graduation prayer, a 'war' on Christmas, or Bible club decision. Damn it! I remember because I felt validated that the court saw a distinction that I long argued for. Someone's going to ask for a link and I will be up a creek proving up my assertion! Irritating.

 

You just wrote the same thing I wrote, only worded it differently.

I think you have it screwed up in your head because, again, you essentially repeated what I said and claim I meant something different. I have been consistent is stating THE CONSTITUTION LIMITS GOVERNMENT’S AUTHORITY TO ESTABLISH RELIGION = FORCE YOU TO ADHERE TO ANY PARTICULAR RELIGION OR ANY RELIGION AT ALL.

Can you show me where I am CITING there has been any establishment of religion? The settlers came here because of religious oppression. They sought RELIGIOUS FREEDOM = THE FREEDOM TO WORHSIP WHATEVER GOD THEY CHOOSE OR ANY DENOMINATION THEY CHOOSE OR NO RELIGION AT ALL.

Please read each upper case line 30 times and then it may stick. Otherwise you seem to be beyond help here.

 

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Yer you can't seem to grasp the fact that by pushing religion into schools, through the teaching of creationism, you are violating the religious freedoms the founders enshrined in the first amendment.

Your assignment is to go read the first amendment a hundred times before you post again.

 

Oh but how the social conservatives fight against small, fiscally sound government. They need to keep the gays from getting married in the name of freedom and small government that stays outside of the bedroom!

 

They've taken it upon themselves to guard The Family™ in today's wicked atheist America And to do this, they of course scapegoat people who somehow deviate from their WASPish biblical worldviews.

 

If religion is an academic secular area of inquiry then a secular upper High School course based on that model should be fine. Last time I looked it was a major and minor at all major State universities.