Will George Zimmerman be innocent or guilty for the death of Treyvon Martin?

I wouldn't disagree with the fact that this case seems to have been mishandled at the beginning but that seems to have all been worked out now. Based upon the two motions to dismiss, reviewed by two different judges, the prosecution apparently has enough evidence to go to trial and it's going to trial. That's the way it should be.

What sort of annoys me are those that are making decisions as to whether Zimmerman is guilty or innocent predominately based upon inadmissible information. We can also note that Zimmerman will not be found "innocent" by a jury. A jury doesn't decide innocence but instead only decides if the prosecution established "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" and will return a verdict of "guilty" or "not guilty" based upon that.

I sat on a rape jury once and all of the members of the jury believed that it was highly likely that the man raped the woman but also believed the prosecution didn't establish that beyond a reasonable doubt. The verdict was not guilty because of the high criteria required for us to return a guilty verdict.

Sadly, in the Martin-Zimmerman case, the verdict is secondary to the fact that Martin is dead and it was a completely unnecessary death of a young man. Had Zimmerman done nothing or if he would have just called 911 and let the police deal with the matter then Martin would be alive today. Nothing will change that fact.

 

Having no DNA on the gun does not prove that Martin didn't try to grab the gun.Osterman is not a witness to events prior to the fatal shooting.

How is that proof of guilt? All you have done is demonstrated that there is no proof either way. You seem to be another Zimmerphobe who thinks zImmemrnan must prove his innocence. All you have done is reinforce the LACK of proof.

What you beleive is utterly irrelevant. Its what can be proven and certainly your theory can not be proven.

 

Except that Zimmerman DID call 911 and he claims that he DID leave them to deal with the matter and that Martin doubled back and attacked him which is consistent with the timings. Certainly Martin did not go straight home.MArtin was clearly looking for trouble...and found it

 

Nor does Zimmerman's statement that Martin tried to grab the gun establish that Martin tried to grab the gun.

I can only speculate on how a jury might see this but I'd assume a jury would not conclude that Martin tried to grab Zimmerman's gun because there is no independent evidence that would establish that. They're not going to simply take Zimmerman's word for it. How that would play out in deliberations is beyond my ability to speculate but if Zimmerman's defense is that Martin was going for Zimmerman's gun then that defense strategy would fail IMO.

The question of why Zimmerman even had a gun when confronting Martin is certainly going to be an issue of consideration by a jury though and I have no idea on how that is going to affect their decision.

 

Zimmerman did not leave the matter to the police as he left his vehicle to follow Martin. Had Zimmerman made the 911 call and remained in his vehicle, which is what a neighborhood watch member is supposed to do, then Martin would still be alive today.

One of the key points of all neighborhood watch guidelines is that the watch member should never do anything that could possibly lead to a confrontation. Obviously Zimmerman's actions by leaving his car and following Martin did ultimately lead to a confrontation and Zimmerman was not following the neighborhood watch guidelines.

As I noted if Zimmerman had simply called 911 and then done nothing (e.g. remained in his vehicle and not followed Martin) then no confrontation would have occured and Martin would be alive today.

This doesn't establish the Zimmerman committed a criminal act but it does establish that Zimmerman's actions were what eventually lead to Martin's death.

 

What has that to do with the prosecution proving its case?

 

If there is a 6 man jury then if the numbers are in proportion to the car license holders in the county(where the jury is recruited,randomly) then one of the jury will be black and there will be at least two republican voting whites. I see little chance of those two convicting.

 

You really don't understand.

It is important that Osterman wrote that passage in his book and that it's verified that both George and O'Mara vetted the book before it was published so the State entered it into evidence.

Maybe you missed it but the State just released evidence that George was trained in kickboxing which makes all of demonizing of Trayvon being some MMA fighter seem like an agenda.

What are the odds that an unarmed 5'11 158 lb kid could take down a 5'7 200 28 y/o armed man who was trained in kickboxing and physically threaten him to the point where he believed he needed to shoot him in the heart.

As for what I believe I have the right to express my opinion even if it bothers Zimbots like you.

 

George was on NW that night... listen to his SPD interviews.

 

I never stated that any of this is relevant for the trial just that all of this would have been swept under the rug if Sabrina and Tracy had not fought to have this case brought to trial.

People have demonized Trayvon's family because they wanted to know why he had to die that night.

And the fact that it took Angela Corey less than a month to collect enough evidence and connect the dots to charge George with second degree murder makes me angry.

 

Show me the verification please

What does 'tranied in kickboxing ,mean? he did a couple of weeks in a Gym or fought several fights? If its the former then its meaningless

height is a huge advantage and if he is tall and muscualr he will beat the crap out of someone short and fat.
|

Youa re welcome to your opinion. Its only the Left who want people banned from saying stuff

 

Go look for it yourself. It's all over the internet (google is your friend)

Well it must mean that George had more experience than Trayvon in fighting. I am sure the State will have the person who trained George as one of their star witnesses or some of the others who trained with George to give an insight into what types of holds George knew and how well he was able to apply them.


And it sounds as if both George and Witness#6 flipped what George did that night onto Trayvon. I can't wait for Bernie to grill Witness #6. I wonder if Witness #6 has a lawyer because he will need one before this is all over.

If height is an advantage then why are fights classified by weight and not height? Besides George was listed by a doctor as obese. If you look at any of the pictures from the police station it's obvious that George is quite fit and you can see the definition in his legs.

When did I attempt to stiffle anyone else's right to speech?

You sound like some paranoid wingnut. LOL

 

Read Osterman's book.........

 

You mean the first edition. After the first edition was released and the State promptly entered it into evidence Osterman attempted to make amends by removing all of the incriminating stuff and published a second edition. LOL

 

I'm hardly going to look for your proof. If you knew you would link to it

Why? Martin was constantly fighting. If zimmerman took a couple of Kickboxing classes it means nothing

Frightened of whom? You?

Holds you don;t know a damned thing about Kickboxing do you!

Yes...and that means very fat

You may not have but the left are allways trying to silence people with 'speech codes''

 

Right.

And the Dog ate his homework.

 

Wow what an incredible come back!

 

LOL. Maybe you should be watching the santions hearing where Bernie is ripping the guy who accused his office of misconduct a new one.

It shows you what Bernie will do to the defense once the trial starts.

As for the kickboxing I will let the State present the evidence that they have.

So you're minimizing the fact that George belonged to a club that taught kickboxing but you know that Trayvon fought 'a lot'???

Do you think that somoene who's 'experienced' in fighting---whatever that means could challenge someone who know the basics of kickboxing

And just because someone is 5'7 and 204 lbs doesn't mean that they are fat as far as bodyfat percentage but 'obese' is the medical term based on BMI but BMI doesn't take into account how much bodyfat someone has and looking at pictures of George he's not fat at least his lower body isn't and he doesn't have a gut.

 

As for the kickboxing I will let the State present the evidence that they have.'Thats very decent of you to let the state do its job. HoweverI want to know about all the holds they do in Kickboxing. you seem to think you know all about it

 

This is probably true for well over 90% of those that study any form of martial arts. The exceptions are very rare.

 

And for good reason.You get good at fighting by a combination of i) physical conditioning(ie speed strength and endurance training) ii) repetitive training in strike and block combinations until they become second nature and most importantly iii) sparring and matches.

When people from china, Japan etc practice their own martial systems they go every day to their Gyms (dojos etc) and put in several hours. When a westerner learns he does an hour and a half session once a week, he learns nothing of any use. Non fighters have this idea that all you need are a few 'secrets' and you 'know fighting'. Its bull(*)(*)(*)(*).

There are effective unarmed combat systems like Ju Jitsu and their derivatives -especially Krav Magan but, again, these are not just a few memorised tequniques these are systemes that are constantly practised and applied.

Its like saying the playing an instrument is just plucking the strings in the right order and giving a list of notes as if armed with that information you could outplay a street musician who has never been to a lesson in his life but has played for hours on end

When I was boxing I ran 8 miles every evening. I was in the Gym 3 times a week and sparred with an ex WBO world champion for 10 minutes each time . The only sport fighters who can touch a good boxer are Sumo or Greco Roman wrestlers. Boxers only have 6 strikes -Jab,cross, r and l uppercut and r and l hook and we work constantly on combinations thereof.

IF I was grabbed unawares by a wrestler I would have no chance whatsoever...NONE

 

"Leave the crime fighting to the professionals, Georgie."

 

An interesting statement as I was involved in professional wrestling (not as a wreslter but my 2nd wife was) in the 1980's. Wrestling is the best self-defense martial art I'm aware of because a wrestler can avoid ever "losing" although they can't always win. I met Antonio Inoki that had an exibition match with Mohommad Ali (that I consider the best boxer of all time) and Ali didn't have a chance with Inoki. Inoki couldn't defeat Ali but then Ali couldn't defeat Inoki either. The exibition contest ended in a draw although Ali suffered more physical injuries from it (i.e. leg injuries). It wasn't a good exibition match though because the "rules" really limited each fighter extensively.

Back to the point. All of this crap about Martin and/or Zimmerman having any martial arts training is really irrelevant because neither of them were trained professionals and I agree that any training they might have had was fundamentally worthless. Personally I've only met two non-professionals that were competent in martial arts and both were 7th degree blackbelts (i.e. just three short of reaching the "judan" or "master" level).

 

yes neither were trained professionals. We concur on this issue.

Back to the main issue.



People are backing sides according to their ideology, on the whole, so I would ask you directly how you think the prosecution can prove their case.

(directed to Shiva)