Will the UK really let Alfie Evans die in a hospital unwilling to treat him?

In this case neither local nor central government should be involved in any way, because it's a personal thing and only the parents should make any decisions: they might make a wrong one, but that's what parenting is - trying to do what's best for the child even though 'to err is human'?

Good, I'm glad we cleared that one up? lol

 

I'm sorry, but whether or not something is WORSE than death is subjective. In the eyes of that guy's sisters, keeping him alive WASN'T worse than death. Also, he wasn't in pain was he? So why did you consider it worse than death?

 

So the baby that was admitted the other day with the multiple rib fractures - that would be OK??

The kids who were subjected to "high colonics" because the parents thought that would "cleanse" them - that is OK?

 

And for him???

REmember they never visited - they were not there day after day watching him suffer.

We had no real way to communicate so how do we know he was NOT in pain? Can you imagine being conscious, being aware but being unable to mover or respond in any way?

 

Ask proper questions not rhetorical ones - I don't know what you mean by either of those?

 

No, not at all. I was just asking if you knew of any, because I didn't.

What about them?

 

Why is "discussion" in quotation marks?

 

Not unless the doctors agree.

Yes, possibly. I'm sure it happens, though not often.

That is never possible.

It's different for every patient.

No, life support is always painful and invasive, although some patients might not be able to feel pain.

That sounds very unlikely. The family certainly have a say, but they do not own their relatives, no matter how much they may love them or how much money they have.
Doctors can't just switch off life support without the agreement of the next of kin here in the UK.
They have to take the evidence to the courts and let the judges decide.

 

You have never had dealings with the Ombudsman??

Mind each state has its own - some are titled commissions some are titled with different names but because we have an escalation process BEFORE it gets to the courts then it makes this sort of thing harder.

Plus Alfie's parents were actually spurred by a weird religious group with something to prove

 

Because we were unsure of his repossess - at least when I saw him - as I said his only voluntary movement was vertical bobbing of his eyes. Difficult to determine sometimes what the person wants but the spinal hospital we referred him to was used to locked in syndromes - and had seen too many. I have seen three in my career. As I said - imagine being unable to move ANYTHING but your eyes for the rest of your life. Can't even move your head so if you have a body part like an ear pressing against the bed you cannot change position until the nurse turns you - every couple of hours.

 

What reason could doctors have for keeping an incurable patient alive?

Well now I'm really confused. Life support is always painful and invasive but at the same time some patients might not be able to feel pain? Isn't this a contradiction?

 

Do you live in the USA? Could this story have happened over there? If not, what would be different?

 

You mean "responses?" Also, you said "discussion with the family" not discussion with the patient, so why would it have mattered that he couldn't respond?

 

No. Is that not the case with the majority of the country? What a sorry state of affairs we are in if the majority of people have to go to the healthcare ombudsman!

You mean harder to get out into the media?

 

Imagine that you are fully aware of your surroundings but cannot communicate with anyone at all. You cannot speak, or even make facial expressions. You are nothing more than a functioning mind in a body that you have no control over whatsoever. You cannot even cry if you are in pain or smile if your are happy. No one talks to you because you are unresponsive. There is no hope of you ever being able to ever communicate either.

Isn't that worse than death?

 

You can get medical staff who do not like to lose a patient. There is a "joke" - why do we put nails in coffin lids = answer - so oncologists cant give one last dose of chemo.

That is what the drugs are for. Ventilation is not that painful but can be distressing if the ventilator becomes dyssynchronous with the patient. Such as when they have a coughing fit and the vent is still trying to deliver a breath - fortunately these days the vents are far far more patient reactive and will synchronise better. Still happens though. Then there is the need for "suctioning of the airway". Now artificial airways cannot do what normal ones do which is move sputum up and out so it collects at the base of the tube until a nurse slides in a suction catheter and removes the sputum. Not only can this hurt (it is the most frequently reported adverse activity remembered by patients) but it also "takes thier breath away" as we remove air as well as sputum during the procedure. Of course there are interventions in place to minimise this discomfort but it is hard particularly for small children who already have a very small airway so are more prone to blockages and erosion of the mucus membranes

 

What makes you think that the majority of people need to go to the ombudsman?? Most of thier complaints are from mental health clients I hate to say

 

Were you not surprised that I had never had dealings with the Ombudsman? You seemed surprised when you asked me if I had.

 

That he or she still has some quality of life, or that treatment could control the illness, perhaps. People do come off life support. It has been known. To withhold treatment that is working would be illegal.

No, as it's not always possible to tell. Doctors shouldn't assume anything.

Alfie's parents, for example, insisted he couldn't feel pain, but at the same time he was aware when he was being touched and responded to certain stimuli.

That wasn't the case, sadly. It was wishful thinking. ( Don't ask me how I know. It's all in the Judge's summary)

 

I was not surprised I was being rhetorical

 

I agree that it would be hard to understand why anyone would think that it ISN'T worse than death, but it is still subjective.

 

Yes it is but none of the three locked in Syndromes I have nursed have chosen life - all decided on palliation

 

For Chris:
https://www.rch.org.au/caringdecisions/chapters/Who_decides_about_life_support_/#

 

You mean and continue living? Do people come off life support who were previously considered "incurable?" I suppose these are what doctors would call the "medical miracles."

If someone is considered to be "incurable" doesn't that mean that no treatment is working?

I'm sorry, but I'm still at a loss at to how you can say "Life support is always painful" even though it is "not always possible to tell" as you have stated above.

 

I thought you said the guy in your example story couldn't communicate.