Why should people be forced to get the vaccine in order to protect others who choose not to get it?

Not if your immune system can deal with the virus

 

Never had symptoms. Was a bit warm in the forehead when I went to bed, but was not the next morning.

I am immune to all corona virus.

 

We have a lot to learn but we have found that cross reactive T cells formed from previous non Covid coronaviruses do help the body mount a more rapid and robust immune response to natural SARS-CoV-2 infection and to Covid vaccines.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210902174754.htm

 

I do not believe you have identified ANY "bad behavior" by Dr. Fauci or the CDC.

 

That’s because you deny science.

 

No, I'm just tired of hearing the lies about Fauci and others.

That doesn't have much of anything to do with science, as the lies about Fauci appear mostly focused on policy recommendations.

 

Oh. You think saying cloth masks are just as good as medical grade masks has nothing to do with science? You think claiming we didn’t know Covid “could” spread asymptomatically and presymptomatically in March of 2020 doesn’t have anything to do with science? You think recommending against the best masks doesn’t have anything to do with science?

Every criticism I’ve made of Fauci is because his policy was NOT BASED ON SCIENCE.

You are welcome to provide evidence (science) that cloth masks are as good as N95 and equivalent masks. You are welcome to present evidence recommending against quality masks for over a year AFTER they were in OVERSUPPLY was correct based on tenets of epidemiology. You are welcome to provide evidence from science that known existing respiratory viruses aren’t understood to spread asymptomatically and presymptomatically, and that assuming (incorrectly) SARS-CoV-2 would be the virtually unheard of exception to this rule was the correct assumption based on virology and public health epidemiology. Go ahead. I love evidence. Defend these grand policy decisions with science. I implore you. Show the foundational science underpinning these policy recommendations. Give me a study showing the efficacy of cloth masks equals that of N95s in any setting. Give me a study showing respiratory viruses don’t spread asymptomatically and presymptomatically. Give me a study showing recommendations against the best mitigations somehow saves lives.

I criticize Fauci for lying. I do not lie about what he has done. I document it fully with the best available evidence (real science). I don’t post unsubstantiated opinions.

Oh, you are welcome to present evidence his misinformation is not lies, but instead incompetence. But he’s an intelligent, educated man. I don’t believe he didn’t know respiratory viruses spread pre and asymptomatically. I don’t believe he really thinks cloth masks are as good as N95 or equivalent masks. I don’t believe he’s ignorant of US mask manufacturing capacity or supply. But you can change my mind with solid evidence! Go…

 

At the beginning, we did not have enough masks even just to protect first responders.

We had doctors and nurses coming back from retirement to help, even though they were in the high risk age category. Those people were coming back, FULLY aware that we were NOT going to provide protection for them.

And, they paid with their lives at a significant rate.

Remember???

And, let's remember that POLICY is NEVER purely based on science so totally as you want. Policy is informed by a number of factors including the will of the people, the possible, the cost, etc.

For you to then come along and make your disgusting accusations just makes me want to puke.

 

Good post.

 

I told you that is irrelevant to my criticism. My criticism is with recommending AGAINST quality masks after masks were in OVERSUPPLY. You are flogging a strawman by going back to the spring of 2020.

Oh. You don’t think epidemiology is science. Cool. Will of the people? People WANTED to buy good masks. They had to be told NOT to. They were told NOT to after they were cheap and in OVERSUPPLY. You are building more strawmen to avoid dealing with the truth. You were lied to and many died because of those lies.

Facts my friend. Not accusations. Well documented facts. If you cared about human life, the deaths caused by Fauci and the CDC would make you puke.

Go ahead and defend these lies and policy blunders. I implore you. Show us the science they are based on. You always want my posts to be backed by science, but you don’t care that Fauci and the CDC opinions aren’t backed by science? So you really DON’T care about evidence or science, do you? If you did you would hold public health to the same standard you hold me to. If you cared about science you would want public health officials to follow evidence based medicine. You were all for evidence based medicine until your authorities don’t follow it. Then you DON’T want evidence based medicine. LOL

You have backed yourself into a corner now. You have taken two diametrically opposed positions. You want me to base my posts and advice on science but you don’t expect others to as well. Interesting. Very interesting.

 

I think you need to remember that Dr. Fauci was NOT the person or organization that was setting policy for the federal government. He had a position of membership in that. He was a contributor who did NOT get his own advice directly translated to policy.

He was part of the decision making process. That does NOT give him freedom to lobby against the decisions made.

Let's remember that federal policy even included gators and bandannas, not just the three layer cloth masks that people could make at home that the CDC accepted at the time. Suggesting that NAIAD should make a public assault on that policy is just not the way it works.

And, let's remember that president, who runs the show, was strongly opposed to ANY masks.

Remember that you can find other cases of disagreement, too. Remember that Trump decided the HE should be the focus of the response of science to the public. So, HE started being the one who showed up on TV, with Dr. Fauci now behind him on the dais, and Trump started presenting the "facts" (as he saw them, NOT as science saw them).

In that venue, too, Dr. Fauci had a political tight rope to walk, as he could not be effective in his job if his direction had been to counter the volume of total CRAP Trump was spewing.

Dr. Brix was in the same position. She had to choose whether to resign or work from within to mitigate. Maybe she stayed around too long(??)

Now, she points out that Trump's acts and statements are responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans.

Would it have been better for Dr. Brix to leave? I don't believe so. Whomever Trump chose as a replacement is highly unlikely to have provided more pushback than did Dr. Brix - even though it's easy to find places where Dr. Brix allowed false statements to stand.

 

LOL. Who was President during the majority of the time period quality masks were recommended against while in oversupply?

A hint. It wasn’t Trump. Thanks for the humor and more evidence this isn’t about science for you.

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/w...-face-masks-and-staying-home-as-virus-spreads

You are just wrong on this.

We did NOT have an oversupply of masks by the end of March 2020. And, it was NOT Dr. Fauci's position to oppose what was said by the national task force of which he was one member.

To suggest that means Dr. Fauci lied is JUST PLAIN FALSE as well as being disgusting.

If you think he lied, then CITE IT.

And, I mean cite his words in a specific, dated, reputable source.

Further, if all he is doing in your quote is communicating the position of the Trump task force that is NOT A LIE - it is his JOB. [/QUOTE]

 

dupe

 

This is PURE political CRAP.

It was Trump who killed the pandemic task force established by Obama.

It was Trump who upon entering office killed the plans for US mask manufacturing capability to be used in emergency situations.

It was Trump who in January refused the offer of a US manufacturer to refurbish a machine that could produce a million masks per day.

It was Trump who did not stop FEMA from interdicting deliveries of PPE to hospitals.


Then, YOU want to talk about oversupply!

Here is a view from the inside by those who were trying to solve the PPE supply shortage:
https://hbr.org/2020/09/why-the-u-s-still-has-a-severe-shortage-of-medical-supplies

Note that this was September of 2020.

 

LOL, due to outsourcing (thanks globalists) there was only one US mask manufacturer. They could not gear up for the demand.

 

True. But, I don't get your "thanks globalists" nonsense. What happened with masks is what happens any time someone figures out how to win in the game of free market capitalism.

But, we KNEW that shortage was coming. That's why Obama had moved to create a strategic mask capacity - only to have it killed by the following administration. COVID19 wasn't our first lesson in the fact that we needed mask creation capability.

We also killed an offer in January. A person or company with a long retired mask machine offered to refurbish the machine if the costs were covered. Our government refused.

That machine was capable of a million masks per day.

As much as you might want to try, you just can't blame free market capitalism for that.

 

[/QUOTE]
I have NEVER claimed we had an oversupply of quality masks in March 2020. LOL. You really don’t know anything about this do you? You didn’t read the link I gave you did you?

Here’s one occasion Fauci rolled a few lies into one statement. I hope an interview with Nora O’Donnell is a reliable source. From July 2020.
https://www.instyle.com/news/dr-fauci-says-with-all-due-modesty-i-think-im-pretty-effective

The bolded is direct denial of science. There has never been any evidence cloth and homemade masks are as good as masks from surgical supply stores they were supposedly saving for healthcare workers. You will also notice he said they had enough protective equipment but that is also not true. It was short until the fall of 2020. Fauci remained in agreement with the CDC that supply was short and recommended against N95s up until September 2021. The shortage actually ended late fall of 2020. Manufacturers were starting to go bankrupt by February 2021 because they ad huge unsold inventory without buyers. The CDC had told retailers like Amazon to refuse to sell the product to consumers.

Even the NYT figured out the shortage excuse was not true by February 2021.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...alth/covid-masks-china-united-states.amp.html

As I said, Trump or his task force were not a factor after Biden’s inauguration. If these lies were from Trump and Fauci was just taking order, he would have reversed this advice and lie about supply after the inauguration.

The lie is clear and it was told under two administrations.

 

Nope. I’ve stated facts. Under Biden there has never been a shortage of N95 masks. Period. But until September of 2021 the CDC and Fauci recommended AGAINST their use.

Trump is a dumb ass. But that is completely irrelevant to my criticism. Trump couldn’t make the CDC and Fauci lie after January 2021. But they kept telling the same lie through most of 2021. Sorry. Not Trump's fault. Trump is too stupid to come up with lies about pre and asymptomatic spread. He wouldn’t even know what they were. Nor did he know anything about masks.

In September 2020 supply and demand were equalizing. By January 2021 mask manufacturers were so oversupplied compared to demand they were in danger of bankruptcy.

 

You have not identified ANY lie by Dr. Fauci.

Period.

I'm impressed that you stooped to "InStyle"!!

 

Fauci said that we don't need to wear masks. There's a lie.

 

The Obama admin let the strategic mask stockpile to be depleted without replenishing it.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ation-deplete-n-95-mask-stockpile/5114319002/

 

Norah O’Donnell is:
Norah Morahan O'Donnell is an American television journalist who is anchor of the CBS Evening News and a correspondent for 60 Minutes. She is the former co-anchor of CBS This Morning, Chief White House Correspondent for CBS News, and a substitute host for CBS's Sunday morning show Face the Nation.

If Fauci’s own words on the record with one of the most prominent journalists in the US isn’t good enough for you what is? Who cares where all the interview is published?

LOL.

Fauci made false statements. Either he lied or he’s ignorant of virology and epidemiology. You pick. Either way his advice is incorrect snd in direct conflict with all evidence then and now.

I think it’s funny you guys would rather call Fauci and the CDC incompetent morons than liars. Doesn’t matter to me. As long as people understand what they say is not based on science it is immaterial whether you think they are liars or science deniers.

Or, there is an outside chance all the studies are wrong snd cloth masks really ARE better. You could cite such a study and clear all this up. Of you could provide evidence all the mask manufacturers were lying and fooled the NYT into publishing misinformation. You could provide evidence Amazon was lying and the CDC didn’t really tell them to not sell good masks to the public.

But you won’t because no such evidence exists. Fauci and the CDC are science deniers and purveyors of misinformation or disinformation. I think it’s disinformation because nobody as well educated as they are can be stupid enough to believe the false statements they have made. But most Americans are ignorant of virology and epidemiology and afflicted with appeal to authority syndrome so it’s very easy to snooker them with disinformation.

 

That was not a lie at the time it was said.

Statements cans not possibly turn into lies. Lies have to do with the knowledge of the time.

Your view on that is as silly as suggesting that Isaac Newton lied, because Einstein proved him wrong.

 

- Obama was denied money to replenish the stockpile by the Republican congress.

- Trump killed an Obama RFP for a machine to make a million masks a day.

- Trump had all the same warnings for YEARS and did nothing about it.

- Alex Azar of the Trump administration GIGANTICALLY misrepresented the size of the supply on hand, making this seem like less of an issue. He also claimed what "enough" would be when medical science was pointing out that even just a serious flu epidemic would end up requiring more than we had.

- Trump killed an offer of MILLIONS of masks in early January of 2020. Mike Bowen, owner of the largest US mask manufacturer, offered to refurbish 4 machines that could produce 1.7 million masks per week. That was **** canned by Trump.


Then, YOU come along and try to turn a national disaster into an anti-Obama advert!!!

I'm just plain SICK of crap like that.