Why should people be forced to get the vaccine in order to protect others who choose not to get it?

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by chris155au, Jul 31, 2021.

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  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, I said that some cultures voluntarily use masks whenever they perceive that they have a cold or other illness that could possibly be transmitted.

    In the US, we have a significant number of citizens who don't give a crap about others.

    But, as I've pointed out in the past, that probably was not the primary reason that the US was initially reluctant to call for citizens to wear masks.

    In the first months, Trump's cancellations of mask construction and the resultant dwindling supply of masks in the USA meant that our first responders were grossly undersupplied with PPE and were dying at a higher rate than the general population. Doctors and nurses were required to wear each mask for at least a WEEK when protocol called for more than one mask per day - thus severely reducing effectiveness that was obviously already marginal.

    Also, FEMA was interdicting deliveries of PPE to hospitals that had purchased those supplies.

    Hospitals were begging for donations of masks from the public. I gave a few hundred N95 masks I had due to an issue not related to this pandemic.
     
  2. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Who
    South Korea had a shortage as well. The difference is they worked to solve the problem. We told people masks don’t really work, cloth masks are as good as N95s, and that masks were in short supply for 8 months after they were in oversupply.

    The cultural difference between Korea and the US is that public health officials here make policy in opposition to science whereas public health officials in Korea made policy based on science. The other cultural difference is here we have people like you who approve of and defend policy in direct opposition to science and support outright lies to underpin that policy.

    Both Americans and Koreans wanted, bought, and used masks. But our public health officials told lies about masks here. For 19 months our public health officials told various lies about masks (or they are incompetent and have misinformation). And over half the country LOVES the lies. Definitely a cultural difference, but not the difference you imagine.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2021
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You are trying to compare issues that are not comparable.

    If you want to compare the US and Korea on actions to produce PPE, fine. We lose, of course, as our government was not interested in doing that. Our direction was to wait for capitalism to solve the problem. However, there are solid reasons for that being ridiculous.

    If you ant to compare policy of the US and Korea, then do that. And, in that case you have to consider issues such as the full policy, the capability of producing masks, the state of the healthcare systems wrt ppe. The willingness of the people to protect each other, etc.

    You did not do that. Once again, you worked to make this a purely political issue, while assuming that our leadership surely must have hated us citizens - for reasons that you CAN NOT DESCRIBE.

    You need to try to make an argument that makes sense.
     
  4. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Asians wear masks for many reasons, infectious disease being a relatively minor one. Reasons include religious overtones, pollen, industrial/transportation pollution, anonymity, social cues, and popularity/peer pressure.

    This article first published in 2014 May correct some misconceptions for you.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com...why-asians-wear-surgical-masks-in-public/amp/

    Here’s an interesting study of reasons for mask usage in Japan during the Covid pandemic.
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.01918/full
    As usual, your opinions are not supported by evidence.
     
  5. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    My argument does make sense. Citizens of both countries wanted masks. One country has public health officials that followed science and the US had officials that didn’t.

    It’s not political. I don’t even know the political leanings of those involved. I’ve heard Fauci is more conservative and I’ve heard others say he’s a “liberal”. I don’t care. I’ve never heard anyone say what the political leanings are of CDC directors and upper level bureaucrats. Doesn’t matter because the same lies and incorrect advice were given under two very different administrations.

    Both the US and S Korea were short of PPE. Citizens of both countries wanted masks. The difference is SK worked to get people masks and the US didn’t.

    Capitalism solved the issue in a matter of months. Forcing them would not have changed anything. Machinery doesn’t appear faster when production is forced than when a company wants to make a profit. After capitalism solved the problem our public health officials bankrupted and financially stressed the companies by recommending against the product they claimed was in short supply but wasn’t.

    And you have to remember, it doesn’t matter what the culture is or what policy is pursued, the statement cloth masks are as good as surgical quality masks is a lie or misinformation based on incompetence. The oft repeated claim by the CDC and backed by Fauci that N95 masks were in short supply after January 2021 was a lie or misinformation based on incompetence. Policy is irrelevant here. The statements made, whether as lies or a result of incompetence, are/were incorrect. Yet you defend them, even though they are in direct conflict with all science/evidence. This makes you a science denier.

    Policy absolutely can be based on more than hard sciences. But it should never be based on things in opposition to science and on outright lies or incompetence.
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense.

    You showed nothing at all about the likely receptiveness by the population to government direction on wearing masks.
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Dude - you still ignore that government policy is NEVER EVER guided only by science.

    The USA is no exception. And, this has been pointed out over and over and over again.

    Until you get that, what you post on this is likely to be just plain ridiculous.
     
  8. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I love when you guys call science nonsense. It shows you really are science deniers.

    Government direction isn’t relevant. Citizens of both countries were buying and using masks hand over fist. Before anyone told them to. Here people were told NOT TO.

    It’s pretty hard to expect people to believe you when you say science says masks are essentially useless and then the next day say everyone needs to wear one based on science. The science didn’t change. The same evidence for mask usage existed in March when Fauci and the CDC said masks were ineffective as existed on April 3 when they changed course 180 degrees.

    You say Americans wouldn’t accept mask wearing by direction, but they were doing it VOLUNTARILY until told not to. Resistance to mask usage TODAY still stems from the lies told by our public health officials. Lies you SUPPORT and DEFEND.
     
  9. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    LOL. I have never claimed policy is based on ONLY science. But it SHOULD NEVER BE BASED ON DENIAL OF SCIENCE—EVER. And that’s what was done here. Policy was in direct opposition to all known evidence.

    You are ignoring the fact the policy you defend is OPPOSED to science in every way. You expect my policy recommendations to be based on science. But you support other policy that is in direct DENIAL of all science.

    You made a post to me complaining about GOP policy not based on science. Yet you are fine with other policy in direct denial of science. Policy directly responsible for deaths of Americans.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Policy is OFTEN counter to science. That's not some sort of rarity.

    And, no. I do not support any policy that is in "direct denial of all science" to the best of my knowledge.

    Charging me with supporting policy that kills Americans is a seriously disgusting charge.

    Give that you don't identify that, I have to assume this is just more ad hom.
     
  11. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Are you opposed to the policy of lying to Americans in February and March of 2020 about efficacy of masks? Are you opposed to the policy of lying to the American public by telling them cloth masks are as good as surgical quality masks? Are you opposed to the policy of telling Americans N95 masks were in short supply when they were in oversupply? Are you opposed to policy not based on science or do you support policy not based on science? You tell me. You want all my policy recommendations to adhere strictly to science but seem to support other policy in direct opposition to science.

    Yes policy is sometimes in denial of science. Like policy making weed illegal and alcohol legal for example. But it’s bad policy and should be criticized, not supported and have excuses made for it.
     
  12. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Then why didn't Fauci simply say that?

    And what do you mean Trump CANCELLED mask construction? He ordered mask manufacturers to stop making masks?
     
  13. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What the interviewer knows is totally irrelevant. Fauci did the interviews to speak to the audience, not the interviewer. You realise that don't you?
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
  14. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Yes, so then why do you suppose we have heard about nothing BUT "the science" with regard to COVID policy during this entire pandemic? What other factors have you heard the government talking about?

    It's not just about what the citizens were doing, it's about what the government did. As @557 said, they were working hard to
    supply their population with masks at the same time that Fauci was saying masks were useless. Why do you suppose that was?
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
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  15. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Science isn’t the basis of progressive thought. Science is just an “in-name-only” hammer they attempt to beat things into submission with from time to time if it’s perceived as the most expedient tool at hand.

    They have no real belief in science. The claim they follow science is merely a passing fancy that lasts just up to the point science conflicts with their emotions, quest for power, or desire to abdicate personal responsibility to authority.

    I believe Nietzsche formed the template for the best description of how modern progressives view science. If I may parody what may be one of his most famous thoughts that turned out to be prophetic in the death of not only one, but now two institutions.

    “Science is dead. Science remains dead. And we have killed it. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become increasingly “progressive” simply to appear worthy of it?”

    Yes, the Enlightenment killed God. And replaced it with “science”. But when empirical evidence conflicted too much with our feelings and desire for control we had to kill science as well. Covid has clearly demonstrated this to be true.

    For those who really do care about facts and individual human life, and are willing to use critical thought, consider: I am the madman. I have smashed my lantern in the street and this post is my pronouncement of requiem aeternam deo on science.
     
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  16. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, just like science conflicts VERY much with their idea that men can become women and women can become men! :roflol:
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
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