People who say God gives us free will are liars.

So does Paul choose to convert or not?

You tell me. All of us.

 

Too bad I am not special like Paul. Too bad God favors some over others.

Since I am not a favorite, I am doomed to be tortured for all eternity. Doesn't seem fair, but I guess God makes the rules and we have to live by them or be tortured for all eternity. What a costly price to pay simply for not being one of His favorites.

Anything but free.

 

He is convinced it is the Lord the second he hears His voice.

There was no choice. It was obvious.

I'm not given such leeway. And I'm not so sure I trust this Paul character. Just a chapter ago he was helping those who stoned a man to death. Not a trustworthy man, IMO.

 

Christians get off on saying that "Even if God did reveal Himself, people still would not accept Him."
That's a fine presumption, but one that has never been put to the test. Because God never reveals Himself. Never ever. Only in stories.

If Paul was anything like modern Christians, you can't believe a word he said. They are known for their lies.

Like defining free will as it is in my sig, yet USING the term in completely different contexts to mean something completely different which they can't back up.

I wish I could trust you folks. But just one lie is enough to ruin your credibility forever.

And of course, that whole "If God did reveal Himself, people still would not accept Him." line is proven false if you accept the testimony of Paul. There you have one who did right there. But they still use that line. Because they are liars.

 

ROFL. Agh, so in our faith, only Paul and those like him are not in hell?

That is your hang up.

Its also not the question. Was Paul's conversion a choice or not?

And how does that apply to the thousands who lose their faith or gain faith everyday?

 

Free will means you are able to decide for yourself. Everyone has free will. Unfortunately, no human is an island. Your decisions have a ripple-effect. If your decisions cause dangerously high threatening waves, others will seek to thwart your actions.

Realizing what free will means is just part of maturity. Juveniles typically think they can do whatever they want and it won't affect anyone.

 

Free will means you can choose freely. It doesn't mean that there are no consequences surrounding your choices.

 

I choose to be an eagle.




Umm, nope. Doesn't work. Darn free will.

 

If you believe it then it's right. If not then it's wrong.

Of course if you ask the same question in context of reality rather than religious faith then it's neither right nor wrong, - then it's nonsensical.

 

Let me end this with a little knowledge about our faith. Have you ever heard about Perfect and imperfect contrition? it's the basis of forgiveness.

If you repent but the only reason you are repenting is your fear of Hell then you are practicing Imperfect contrition and are not forgiven at all,,,,get it? I hope you understand, you cant fool God...[or yourself...]
So,,,,the only way that Bank robber would be forgiven is if he is truly sorry for what he did and does not keep repeating the same action...

This shoots down the OP entirely as his opening remark implies the only reason people may be good is the fear of Hell, it just does not work that way...

 

You are not serious are you? free will is nothing more than a choice of ones actions, just in case you really are stumped...

[These are the same people that call the Religious ignorant]

I myself am not super Religious, but I respect peoples beliefs and understand this rather easy subject of free will.

 

Actions? Ok. I choose to fly like an eagle.

Nope. Doesn't work, either.

 

This is exactly what I've referred to as militant atheists ^ demanding
Christians admit to God being a myth, or in this case blah, blah, blah whatever.

Maytag, YOU don't matter to me. YOU don't rock my world. I don't give a (*)(*)(*)(*) what you have to rant about. I couldn't care less about your opinions of your self-torture over the existence of Christianity and Christians.

So go ahead and let it eat you up. Have some heartburn over it. Good. You brought it on yourself.
I laugh at you.

 

The OP contains a standard fallacy: equivocation, "the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense."

Interesting that not a single one of the theistic apologists put his finger on this basic problem...a telling phenomenon in itself as this sort of error occurs frequently in theistic apologetics and is equally invalid in either case.

Example:
Omniscience and freewill are mutually exclusive. If God knows in advance I am going to do evil, then I am forced to do the evil.

Theists typically equivocate when trying to explain this away. They say, "Just becasue God knows what you are going to do, doesn't mean he is forcing you to do it." This is a self-serving form of reverse-equivocation. The intent is to split the term "force" into two different senses, one of which absolves God. But the senses are not actually different.

In this instance, God is not forcing me in the sense that he is grabbing my arms and making me pull the trigger. The error here, and the point, is that it is not God doing the forcing, it is omniscience. I, you, and everyone must comply with unalterable foreknowledge. Perfect foreknowledge forces the hand in a manner congruent with the standard notion of muscular physical force.

The force of Gravity (though apparently not a force at all in the normal sense) is not something you can disobey. You must comply with the force of gravity no matter the amount of freedom and/or will-power you attempt to bring to bear. The force of omniscience is the same as the force of gravity in this respect.

And if it is required of God that he be omniscient, such that were He not omniscient then He would not be God, then it is also true that all actions are forced by God by virtue of his omniscience. Indeed, if there is a God that is by definition omniscient, then saying "I have freewill" and "I do not have freewill" are equally unavoidable as consequences of His omniscience.

If there is a God, there are no arguments, because there is no one to do any arguing. There is only the machinery of God's will playing itself out. But this is just a different way of saying that God is himself a slave of his omniscience, for surely he must have knowledge of all His own future actions as well, as a consequence of omniscience, or He is not God since God must be omniscient.

And now I await the equivocation of theistic apologists...

 

I began to write in here last night and scratched the idea because it just seemed to be a waste of time.

I am more on the side with the OP in this case because I don't see anyway around it. I would certainly not call anyone a liar because they believe in the freedom of choice and I don't agree with that kind of judgment.

However, i reserve a little room for the possibility that I am wrong, that freewill and omniscience might not be mutually exclusive based on some possible paradox that I haven't figured out. We human creatures haven't figured out every yet, have we ?

 

is this thread supposed to be a joke?

 

OR..God may know that there could be several outcomes depending on what choice you make. God may actually know the complete future of each outcome as well. Indeed, each outcome could have a 'life' of its own however you are only privy to this one whereas God sees the whole picture.

In this way, one can have free will and, at the same time, be overseen by an omniscience.

 

^^^^ Bingo.

I am free to CHOOSE to rob a bank, but human laws will make me pay for my choice.

As for the christianity version of free will, it is complete nonsense. If this 'god' is omnipresent, then why is he undetectable? Ohhhh, he made himself undetectable, there by taking away our freewill to detect him. So this freewill christians speak of is not true freewill, but the freewill this supposed 'god' wants us to have.

 

If god creates all and knows all, then there is no free will.

Also if god knows the outcome, there is no choice or an alternative outcome. A perfect being cannot be wrong, so your future is already planned out under this scenario.

Another epic fail by christian thinking.

 

Yes there is...an individual is free to make a choice. The outcome of that choice can be already known by God. Indeed the outcome of NOT making a particular choice can already be known by God.

A perfect being can create a scenario that allows for free will. I think you are being a bit myopic in your thinking possibly due to an over-arching hatred of Christians.

 

if god knows the outcome, then there is no choice. A omnipotent being cannot be wrong.

If one creates the situation and knows the outcome, then there is no free will. If one knows the outcome but does not create the situation, or creates the situation but does not know the outcome, then there can be freewill.

George Lucas is the creator of Star Wars and knew the outcome. Anakin had no freewill in going to the dark side.

Perhaps if you weren't so brainwashed by christian thinking, you would see the bleeding obvious.

 

He is saying "outcomes," and that these are based on your choices. i.e depending on your choices, there are more than one possible outcomes and that God knows all of those outcomes.

It is still problematic because this suggests that he doesn't know all of your choices.

 

Then 'god' is not omniscient.

 

I did say RPA1's post was problematic.

 

Wow, you're pretty extreme. Why are you so concerned with the beliefs of others?