People who say God gives us free will are liars.

I know, I just took the opportunity to hammer it home

 

"Free will" refers to the fact of man's volitional nature (his capacity for choice), not an absence of punitive consequences for an undesired action.

 

The point is we are free to create our own situations. Each decision you make could have had a whole myriad of outcomes. Each outcome may already be known by an some omnipotent being. That doesn't mean you did not have the free will to make your own choice.

Example: You are on a narrow, dirt, back road. Suddenly you come to a fork in the road. Each fork presents a different scenario. I (the omnipotent one) am in a helicopter hovering high above you. I see that if you go right, you will most likely fall off a cliff. If you go left, you will achieve your driving goal.

I decide not to interfere because that would be thwarting your free will. I can, however clearly see each outcome.

Many writers do not know the exact outcome when embarking on writing a story.

That is a bit nasty isn't it?

 

But it appears you wound up hitting your thumb instead...

 

Omniscience is still debated today. One line of reasoning is that there is 'inherent omniscience' which is the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.

The other is total omniscience which is actually knowing everything that can be known.

Christian haters typically think all Christians subscribe to the total omniscience definition of God however, there is controversy among theists to this day. I would urge all you Christian haters to become more familiar with the subject before trying to debate a subject you obviously have very limited knowledge of.

 

Just because you choose Champagne and Caviar instead of pretzels and beer is no reason to blame the store owner.

It seems that most people are looking for a ticket that will provide them with exoneration with regard to any act or deed that they perform. Most everyone seems to be looking for that silver bullet that allows them to exercise the philosophy "if it feels good, do it", and said silver bullet exonerates them from any retribution.

 

Same problem. You don't know what turn I'm going to take. If you did, you would only see one outcome and one hypothetical fortune cookie. lol

 

Unfortunately, for you, you leave out the portion of the scenario where the one hovering is Omniptent and Omniscient.... all knowing... but still does not intervene.

 

Free will is evidenced by the ability to disobey God's will...

... therefore, yes we have free will...

... otherwise, we wouldn't be able to disobey God's will...

... and there would be no consequences.

 

Not sure I follow incorporeal, I always assume God's omnipotents.

I believe in omniscients over freewill but I humble out to the possibility that I just don't know the answer to that paradox.

 

I believe I said each outcome was already known by the omnipotence (me in the example ). It makes no difference to the omnipotent one which fork in the road you take however, you have the free will to choose whichever one you desire.

 

I look at it like this: I have raised four children and have guided them in making many decisions through their years of 'growing up'. But now that they have reached that age of accountability, I can only hope that they will continue to follow my instructions and guidance and subsequently make the right decision for the particular occasion (I have seen both sides all too many times.. successes and failures... the failures hurt and the successes make me feel good). Though I could attempt to use my seniority as a tool to intervene in their affairs, that intervening would only show them that I am attempting to dominate their lives and not allow them to make their own decisions. The same is true with God in relation to man. When man reaches that age of accountability, God intentionally steps into the background and allows people to make their own decisions. Sometimes, God will intervene, but as I have seen in the Bible, those occasions are when there is a definite 'divine mission' that is to be accomplished (such as the example in the story of Jonah; And again in Job where satan had to obtain permission to even mess with the life affairs of Job). We do have free will.....

 

So you are trading off omniscience for omnipotence ?

 

You making a choice and a deity knowing it prior to you making it isn't a signal of no free will. You should be questioning the legitimacy of creating life that's destined for doom, but all that assumes we're able to comprehend the thoughts of a God... where (if there exists such a being) it would be futile to try.

 

Why would it be futile under such assumption?

 

It isn't a signal of freewill either.

If that deity created you knowing you would smoke pot, he created you to smoke pot.

 

However, when He created you with the intent of you exercising free will, while knowing that your free will would take you down the path of smoking pot, the free will is what caused you to smoke pot,,, not the intent of the creator. On the other hand, if your line of logic were true, then the courts would not be able to convict anyone on such charges of rape, child molestation, murder, theft, or any other crime, as those things would no longer be crimes but rather, the intent of the creator, and because the creator created nature, then it would be the permissible will of nature, and therefore, the laws of nature would not prevail against the exercise of any of those acts.

 

Well, the whole thing is illogical on its face.

If there is no free will, than nobody lied. Lying by definition means that you know the truth and choose to say something else. But since there is no free choice, there is no choice, thus no one chose to say anything either true or false. So either we have no free will or we can lie. not both.

 

Why not both? Why can we not have 'free will' and still have the capacity to tell a lie? Is that option not one of the primary purposes of having 'free will'? "Do you affirm that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?" There is the question that will establish the option.

 

But without that knowledge of the exact outcome, there can be no omniscience.

In other words, God may very well be able to see what would happen in every scenario for a choice (what would happen if you go left or right at the fork), but He would also know which direction you will choose. If He doesn't, then He is not omniscient.

 

The problem with this is that there is only one omniscience, what you have labeled "total omniscience". The other one, "inherent omniscience", is an attempt to explain away the obvious logical paradoxes inherent with the concept of an omniscient god.

See, if I have the ability to know everything, but I choose to not know a specific thing, then I am still not omniscient. Even if it's by choice, I still would not know everything, and thus, not omniscient. The choice is irrelevant.

The idea of "inherent omniscience" is itself illogical. Omniscience is an absolute - all in, or not at all.


And as an aside, just because someone points out the faults of Christianity, or even hates Christianity, does not mean that they also hate Christians.

 

Whether or not God would physically intervene is irrelevant. Omniscience itself is what "forces" the decision.

 

No, you have the illusion of free will. To you, it seems as though you chose to go left. But to an omnipotent god, you were always going to go left. Since omniscience is absolute knowledge and cannot be incorrect, there was no way you could have gone right - thus, no choice.

 

If you created the situation and you know the outcome before you create the situation, then there is no free will.

If the outcome is not what you saw, then you are not omniscient.

If God knows all and creates all, then freewill is impossible.

Is it any more or less nasty than this:

 

Omniscience is 100% total knowledge of all existents (all objects, actions and attributes). If an action has not taken place, there is nothing to know. Volition is not abrogated by omniscience.