People who say God gives us free will are liars.

It's hard to believe they have not heard of Hell and eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation. IMPOSSIBLE that they would be Christians and not have heard of people being sent to Hell for disobediance.

So they know that we do not have free will. Oh I know God does not literally control our every action. And that's what they CLAIM is free will: that God does not literally control our every movement via mind control.

Go to the store some day. Are the managers and workers controlling your every thought and action via mind control? No. So according to the Christian definition of "free" that means everything they sell in the store is free.

But try walking out with stuff without paying and what happens? YOU FIND IT WASN'T FREE AFTERALL.

Same thing happens in the afterlife. You can grab stuff and make a run for the parking lot, claiming it is free, but when the security guards catch up to you, you either have to pay for it, or they will call the police.

Now this analogy is completely unnecessary because even Christians know that if you get punished for making a certain decision, then that decision was not free.

I just posted that so they wouldn't even bother posting arguments that hope we forget the definition of the word "free." We are onto you Christians.

You are nothing but a group of liars who will be punished by your own God.

You sin against your own God just to make yourself believe you are winning an online argument.

ADMIT IT HERE AND NOW. HUMAN WILL IS NOT FREE BECAUSE IF WE MAKE THE WRONG DECISIONS WE ARE TORTURED FOR ALL ETERNITY. THAT IS THE PRICE, WHICH MAKES IT COSTLY, NOT FREE.

And stop the lies, Christians. You drive souls away from Christ when you tell such obvious and absurd lies.

 

You are not sent to hell for disobediance. You sent to hell for doing things that we ALL know are sins, and being unrepentent and unremoarseful about it.

For example, when lie .... and just keep doing it, that creates both physical and spiritual problems.

When you commit adultry .... and just keep marrying women and divorcing them because you keep cheating on them. Obviously there is a problem there, and teh consequences are both temporal and spiritual.

When you murder, obviously, this creates problems in both a temporal and spiritual sense as well.

You can't just leave out the Chrstian concept of grace, repentence, and forgiveness and then declare, from a position of expertise, that that Christians have been bamboozled by .... well, we see this kind of expertise from atheists all the time.

 

I'm sorry, but you are speaking English. And in the English language, the word "FREE" means you don't have to pay or trade anything for it.

"Join this religion or be tortured for all eternity." does not describe a situation of free will. It is just the opposite. I can't think of anything that could possibly be more costly.

Please respond to the topic.

 

Agh, you are just wrong. I know you atheists like to call us slaves and all, but unless you acknowledge forgiveness, repentence, and grace, which are major portions of our fauth - then all you have is another strawman based in ignorance.

Is it our fault you didn't test your hypothesis before lauching out there in arroagnce?

Is it our fault is lasted all of one post before it was shown to be without merit?

Now we see why real logic and science requires a peer review before publishing.

 

"Free will " means YOU have the freedom of choice.

When something bad happens, you are free in how you choose to deal with that problem.

 

Your position is easily defeated.

I can be repentant for all the bad things I have done but simply doubt based on common sense that a man executed 2000 years ago by the Roman Empire came back from the dead and I still go to Hell.

Your argument is defeated and we are left with "Join our religion or be tortured for all eternity."

Please respond to the topic.

 

But it's not free because THEN I get the bill. Which says "Eternity of torture. Due upon death."

It's not free.

You people know what "free" means. Stop the lies.

 

How? If you sins are forgiven you are wiped clean, and teh sins that condemn you to hell are erased - there is nothing left that will condem you to hell is there?

Its only if you CHOOSE to continue doing things that even atheists think are bad, that you wind up in hell.

YOU CHOSE to repent or not.

In short - you choose hell - freely, and of your own accord. No one is stopping you.

Your entire arguement undone by ... your choices.

 

Not to be rude... but is English your first language?

You have the FREE WILL to choose to rob a bank.. and if you repent, you will be forgiven.. But, you still go to jail.

I don't think you understand what FREE WILL means.

 

God said "Do these things, or you will be tortured for all eternity."

Later He says, "Well, they aren't doing what I said and everyone is being tortured for all eternity. So I'm going to go down there, live as a human, and commit a crime so I am executed by the Romans, and come back from the dead so they know it was Me. Then for the next several thousand years, anyone who does not believe the secondary accounts of My travels will be tortured for all eternity just the same."

I understand grace and repentence and forgiveness just fine as you can see.

Try to understand the concept of "truth".

It means you stop pretending like you don't know what the word "free" means.

 

Its the accountability part he struggles with.

If you rob a bank, the coppers will come get you, therefore its not really his decision to rob a bank you see?

Conequences happen, and that includes the consequence of choosing a life of sin. Why you would? No idea.

 

I am not free to rob a bank. There is a punishment for that crime. It is a COSTLY decision.

Costly being the antonym of free.

Are you saying that the only way we would not have free will is if God literally controlled our every movement and action? Is that what free will means? Simply that God does not control us via remote control?

 

God does NOT put constraints on your freedom to choose.. You can CHOOSE to break the law..

I am done here.. This is too juvenile for me.

 

Before you go, did I get the definition of Free Will correct?

Free Will - the fact that God does not literally control our every movement and action via remote control.

Is that right or wrong?

 

Before you go, I want to thank you for helping me think up my first sig!

 

Duh! Do atheists live in a magical world that is free from consequences?

If you see a buss coming down the road at full speed and CHOSE to jump in front of it -- its going to hurt. Of course, if you chose not to ... you'd be allright.

I realize the great fear of atheism is accountability, but seriously ... consequence is a tough concept that invalidates faith and makes everyone but you a slave?

What a wonderful magical world of atheism.

Now you see why so many people thing atheists are just pricks with anger management issues.

Is that supposed to pass for an educate discussion about sin?

Maybe in that wonderful magical world of atheism

You clearly have issues with how logic works. I realize you think my faith is a lie, but it isn't just because you want to be a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) about it. Pretty simple.

I believe the term is called - earmuffs - hearing ONLY what you want to.

Didn't take long for another hypothesis from atheism to degenerate into an insult fest did it?

You have some pretty serious personal issues. THis one will be reported.

Agh, the science of atheism is strong indeed. Gotta love this.

Show me how I am wrong, I dare you!!!!

Proven wrong, and ignorant about our faith to boot (as usual).

What, You are scum and villany HOW DARE YOU CHALLENGE ME!

Why do people chose the crappy faith of atheism?

Oh, that is right, as this thread proves, they do not want to be held accountable for their sins ... that is why - my bad.

 

I'm getting over a cold, so excuse the analogy. It's the first thing that came to mind.

If I give someone a cough drop, and I expect nothing of them in return, that was a free cough drop.

If I give someone a cough drop, and then begin to torture them for all eternity for the cough drop, the cough drop was actually very COSTLY for them.

You see the difference between free and not free?

I know it's a wild analogy, but hey, your beliefs are pretty wild.

 

Please take a look at my quote and tell me if I got the definition of free will correct. I realize there are other potential ways to control our movements, I just thought remote control would be the funniest. Please let me know if you can think of something funnier.

Free Will - the fact that God does not literally control our every movement and action via remote control.

 

I think he was singing a song.

 

Nope, he does not control everything we do - that is if we ascribe to the belief and not all Christians do. That would be a Calvinist tradition.

Take a good look at the conversion of Paul to see whether or not God grants us freewill?

 

So my signature is correct?

 

You tell me, what does the converesion of Paul tell you.

 

I see no connection.

Paul is on the road to Damascus when Jesus appears to him and says "Why persecutest thou me?" or something like that.

Jesus tells Paul to go on to Damascus and meet one of the early church leaders... Stephen I think. Er. I'm a bit fuzzy on it. Or was he the one that was stoned to death while Paul watched? I may be getting my founders mixed up but I don't really see how any of that applies here.

 

Agree with you there.

I don't understand your question.

I'd like to point out now that whenever I come to a thread that has maintained semi-formality about religion, you are the one that sets off the flame war. Please do not insult me or I have no wish to debate with you.

None of this is directed at me, obviously, but I'd like to respond to this one. I don't believe any faith is a lie, but many modern religions are twisted by extremists. The Bible is meant to be a book to ponder; nobody should take it literally. The stories in the Bible are meant for ethical and moral purposes only. They explain the Christian way of living life through stories and symbolism. Noah's Ark, for example, is a literally impossible story, but the prophets who wrote it probably didn't write it as an explanation of history. People who take religion to an extreme point twist it INTO a lie.

Insults from this post:

Quite a bit for one post.

I don't want to show you, but I will tell you what I think.

In the New Testament, God is supposedly forgiving, correct? That's why He lets us into Heaven at all; we're all mistakes, and sinful from birth. Christianity is the only way to salvation, because God will forgive you.

But only if you're Christian.

If God is forgiving and loving, like the New Testament claims He is, then why would he send his children to burn in a lake of fire for eternity simply because they are Jewish, or have robbed somebody, or lost faith? That doesn't sound like a loving parent to me. Supposedly, simply repenting is enough to get into Heaven, as long as you mean it. Why would a God require you to grovel for him in order to gain access into His domain? Also, why would ANYBODY worship a god like this? If God requires me to be Christian, obedient, and to repent for sins on my deathbed, even though He loves me, I don't want to worship him.

I'm anything but ignorant, just in case we argue further. I grew up a Christian, so I do know quite a bit about faith.

Another insult. This is a debate forum, people are supposed to challenge you.

Nothing has been proven. I do not choose to be Agnostic because I do not wish to be accountable for my sins. Somebody can be Agnostic or Athiestic and still be a good person, you know. I know many Athiests who are great, intelligent, and nice people who help out the community.

Which is better: doing good deeds because you fear retribution from a supposedly loving god, or doing good deeds because it's the right thing to do?

 

I see now Stephen was the one stoned, Ananias was the one told to go to Paul.

Anyway, what does that have to do with my sig?

Seems like God is literally speaking to these people.

I get no such instructions. I'm desperate for them. Would He only speak to me, I would do as He commands. But nothing.

I'm just like Saul of Tarsus. Awaiting my road to Damascus.