Why follow God and what makes it moral?

How so?

Sure, but none of that is relevant.

 

So you are saying the only reason to do what God says is because he is more powerful? How is he more powerful? Because he has more force than you? By that logic then you believe might makes right? Is this the case?

Yes, you answered, however I do not think the answer is logical. Its a precise answer though, so I thank you for your persistence.

It was a faulty interpretation on my part then, and I apologize.

Yes, but if a greater power told me to stab my son as a son of love I would say 'go (*)(*)(*)(*) yourself' to that greater power - wouldnt you?

I dont want to understand the universe, I want a reason why I should do what God says and a reason as to what make God's order's correct or moral. You have given me an answer, but the answer is flawed.

I have a had a very deep and tormenting journey through religion, but that isnt relevant. Perhaps we will just stick to your response above.

 

i like it.


ie... god didnt do, people did

confucius put it simple with the golden rule

Or simplified; personal responsibility is how to support empathy in reality

 

I do not believe "might makes right." I believe LOVE makes right. Creation is an act borne of love, and so the Being that created this universe is right in Love.

Well--I said it was choice, didn't I? That is your choice.

Thank you.

I would be troubled greatly. I really don't know what I would do. I hope I would have fortitude in my faith. God knows my heart, and knows I want to do right--even if I should fail to do right at times.

How do you know the answer is flawed when you have no answer?

I meant no harm in wishing you peace. I hope you know that.

 

Required rituals of prayer and abstinence are psychological tools for reinforcing committment to the faith. By so doing, such rituals indirectly reinforce committment to the ethics and behavioral mores of the faith.

Remember, religion is less about the individual then it is about the mass society. The first function of religion is not the saving of souls, but the psychological organization of society.

 

I'm answered specifically to what I quoted. For example,I quoted this from you :

My answer was : "Church is specific to the Christian faith and a desired fellowship for like-minded people. It is also for those that want to learn about Jesus and the Bible."

I think that is an adequate answer.

This all depends on what you believe about God megadethfan.

You asked "why be a Christian?" and I said [Why be a Christian] is based on what you believe about God. It is a way to identify your ideology if nothing else.

Satanists,from my understanding, do not believe in God, or even Satan. lol

Megadethfan, how do you get this answer from my quote ?

 

Well if you agree with my premise -aka- Christianity, that is one reason why you should follow God, in that, you agree with Jesus' teachings.

This is why I am breaking down "following God." Following God in this case means that you follow the teachings of Jesus. It all depends what you believe about God.

 

Unfortunately, you dodged part of the issue and your assumptions, like Dawkins are simply wrong.

In fact, instead of taking a look at everyone else's faith, lets take a good look at what you are doing, which, despite the pouty victimhood, is on the table is it not?

#1 - What you are referring to in Abraham, and, as usual, despite your expertise, you've simply and utterly missed the mark again.

a. God stops it, doesn't he? The Bible is also filled with stories that show God's great disdain for human sacrifice, prominent among them is Jehoshaphat.

b. Once again, we see that you are stuck in the OT (which you have claimed is invalid how many times?) and avoiding the NT entirely. The OT cleansing of Sin is done through sacrifice, now it is done through grace - eliminating the need for sacrifice, and its abuse, entirely.

So, quite clearly, the answer to your question is that God would never order it. Which you would know if you had actually studied our faith - something you have claimed to do.

Now, the criticism, once again, is that you will simply make things up to bugger other people about their faith, is that not true? Merely an insult, or an accurate observation?

#2 - your claim about the animal kingdom as a basis for 'morality' is silly. The animal kingdom is governed by one rule, survival of the fittest. There is no human moral code in the animal kingdom, and indeed the differnces are palpable and meaningful. But you didn't test your own hypoethesis did you?

#3 - Can you explain to me why you just skip right over this?

So, let me get this straight, you want this to be a civil discussion, but you want one side to be able to castigate the others as rapists and murderers?

I have an extremely hard time believing, in the context above, and with comments like that ignored, that this is about anything other than bashing people of faith. You remain utterly focused on denying that the intent is to bash, and are apologetic when people make this - but it does not stop you from bashing does it?

Not only have you defined our faith as 'blind faith', because that is what Christianity is - but when people attempt to clarify in a direction that is truer to our faith .... you return it to a simple black and white position of ignorance.

I though this was supposed to be an HONEST exchange of information?

What is really points to is next.

#4 - you just skipped right over the standards part didn't you?

You offered up a dosey of claim, one you have clearly not thought through, and offered up not a single criteria for judgement or HONEST comparison. You've always had a problems with standard have you not?

And the claim is that you will use any standard whatsoever to deny anything a Christian says!

I mean, one one hand you are expert in the faith, enough to tell us our positions are irrelevant and illogical assure us that your agnostic Christianity is the 'true' version of Christs intentions (only revealing the depth of your ignorance about our faith and Christ's teachings), but .... apparently, the story of Abraham, Joehoshphat, the commandments against human sacrifice in particular laced throughout the Bible, and of course, the entire message of grace that is central to Jesus???? Can you tell me why that slipped through the cracks of your mastery?

Can you tell me why you dismiss things as irrelevant and illogical ... because you say so?

The point is quite clear, you are playing atheist baseball again. Offer up something so I can find any excuse to bat it away. Whatever standard I apply to your positions, such as logic, I will most assureadly NOT apply to my own.

And there is the rub MDF, why should we do this with you again? You don't have a question, you already have the answer - but refuse to spell it out of defend that position.

And, as we see, when people examine what you are doing? Well, THAT must be off limits entirely? You can blast others, turn a blind eye to calls of rapists and murder, but your intent, your rejectionism, is off limits?

Not in this world.

Why should anyone share their faith with someone who is just going to belittle and reject it at all cost?

If this is honorable, and even you are capable of that, then come up with some OBJECTIVE STANDARDS for judging various moral positions - and then apply them equally!

Failing that, its just baseball.

 

So, I'm not allowed to look at the extremist possibilities of faith, while you are free to say I have no morals. Don't just out of hand my argument like that, you do yourself no favor.
I assumed you would understand my statement and I guess I gave you people too much credit for understanding the context of an argument, my fault.

Allow me to rephrase so it's simple.

True Faith lies in the foundation of blindly following any dictation given by God. This assumes that;

1. God exists.
2. God has a means of dictating his will to you.
3. God Dictates his will to you in some way.
4. You are able to hear/understand this dictation of Will.
5. You MUST carry this dictation of Will out, regardless of your personal stance.
6. This dictation must fit within your morals, as your morals are from the same entity that is dictating.

That's your argument in a nutshell. But do you see where this all goes wrong?

 

So prove it blind, prove it is without any logical basis.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

While you are at it, go ahead and prove #1 in reverse, that your rejection of God is actually the result of logic and not emotion? Yu can do this by PROVEING, clinically, objectively, precisely, and verifiably, that there is no God.

Otherwise, all you have is hypocrisy.

But then, the silience of all the recently aroused atheists who were up in arms about the 'definition of atheism' and how wrong it is for people to define it - anyone but them - but here is is OK to tell us that we are all lead by blind faith and a bunch of monkeys?

Because you say so, huh?

All you have are double standards - and a desire to kick people. That is really a problem for you - not us.

Faith, as has been explained many times, it the leap from inconclusive evidence base using all those thing not of science, like relationships, wisdom, love, compassion, etc. and seeing them as 'true'

But heh, your blind leap of faith is actually rock solid intellect - that relaies upon a debotched, deliberately misleading caricature of other people's faith.

That is your 'arguement' in a nutshell. Lie about others.

 

Welcome to your biggest fallacy. The fallacy that it is I that has to prove your belief and not you. I am not going to support your conclusion that there is some magic man that makes my physics equations work.

 

Because He is God.

Sure it is. Its relevant to the Christian.

Quantrill

 

And what's relevant to Christians is clearly relevant to the entire World.

 

It doesn't matter to me if its relevant to the world. It is real and relevant to the Christian.

Quantrill

 

Wecome to the world of delusion where you aren't 'proving' either my beliefs or yours.

Atheists demand the most proof, yet use it the least.

Atheism, perferred more than ten to one as the religion of choice by internet trolls.

 

How does he being God make what he says moral?

Well I'm not a Christian, so yes its irrelevant here.

ps. you are going to have to think harder than you usually do to answer this topic's question. You seem content on 'that's just how it is' rather than asking why it is, or should be, that way.

 

Why should your morals be considered as the ones the world functions by?

Because He is God, then His way is the way that matters.

Ok. If its irrelevant to you, then forget it.

Seems you need to think harder. I have no problem following God and accepting His will. You do.

Quantrill

 

I disagree. I think our creation was quite a cruel thing.

So you would kill your own child? Seriously?

No, your answer is flawed. I cant find a valid answer, is my problem. I can find heaps of answers but I need a valid and reasonable answer not a flawed one.

I never intended insult or injury either.

 

That isn't the question. Stop avoiding the topic and answer my question: How does he being God make what he says moral?

That makes no sense. You have a total non-sequtior here. You need to explain why being God makes his decisions moral.

I already have.

In what way?

LOL You seem to be very self centered. This thread isnt about you, or me. Its about the questions posed in the OP. If you cant answer them, you do nothing but reveal what I already seem convinced of - that there are no logical answers to these questions because God, of himself, is not moral simply because he is God. And that based on logical observation, most of God's orders are not moral.

 

Because He is God. I answered your question. You don't like it. Too bad. That is the answer.

What makes your morals that which anyone should function by? That is my question to you, which you refuse to answer. Why? Scared?

Apparently you haven't forgot because you keep asking. If its irrelevant, then forget it. Its no hide off my back.

You need to think harder, not I. I have no problem with God and obedience to God.

Im not having any problem with these questions. You are. You say Gods orders are not moral. Based on 'whose' morality? Yours?

Quantrill

 

So, still attempting to make this look like its not an invitation to flame people?

I believe Quint has the same question I have for you:

You see why striaght away I asked your for a basis of criteria upon which to judge? and HONESTLY compare? And why you keep avoiding it?

Atheist baseball is all about sheer obstinancy.

Since no asnwer will ever placate your 'curiosity', why don;t we just leave it with God. Same damb intellectual process.

 

That is very sad.

God hasn't asked that of me, but He has asked me--literally, rather told me--to do something I very much did not want to do. I have done it.

What would make it valid to you?

I took none.

 

Well putting aside your whining, yes I'll answer his question again. I am questioning God's morals based on rational questioning. I dont need to compare them to other morals, I merely want to know what makes God and his orders moral. If he or you cant answer then its readily apparent you dont know why, or rather you have no reason as to say why God or his orders are moral.

 

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree.

Didnt you ask why you should do it?

Some objective, rational and self evident truth within what is said and ordered.

Good.

 

I dunno--to me, being the victim of cruelty--or perceiving life that way is sad.

To be honest, the experience I had --there was no questioning--I knew it to be from God. I was mad at God at the time and pretty much yelling at Him. He answered me when I screamed at Him, "What the hell do you want me to do?!" --It wasn't what I wanted to do, but it was so clear and true that there was no question but that I HAD to do what I was told. There is no really explaining it, so I won't try, but I consider it an amazing blessing given to me.

I believe it is there, if you have the eyes to see it.


Psalms 19
[1] The heavens are telling the glory of God;
and the firmament proclaims his handiwork.
[2] Day to day pours forth speech,
and night to night declares knowledge.
[3] There is no speech, nor are there words;
their voice is not heard;
[4] yet their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
In them he has set a tent for the sun,
[5] which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,
and like a strong man runs its course with joy.
[6] Its rising is from the end of the heavens,
and its circuit to the end of them;
and there is nothing hid from its heat.
[7] The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the LORD is sure,
making wise the simple;
[8] the precepts of the LORD are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the LORD is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
[9] the fear of the LORD is clean,
enduring for ever;
the ordinances of the LORD are true,
and righteous altogether.
[10] More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
[11] Moreover by them is thy servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
[12] But who can discern his errors?
Clear thou me from hidden faults.
[13] Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins;
let them not have dominion over me!
Then I shall be blameless,
and innocent of great transgression.
[14] Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be acceptable in thy sight,
O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.