⚡Unsold electric cars are piling up on dealer lots⚡

Yes, they are forcing you into them. Federally, EPA's current proposal for the next round of CO2 regulations (exactly the same as the old CAFE regulations only meaner) call for 67% of light duty vehicles sold in 2032 to be EVs. They're currently 6-7%.

And in heavy duty they're calling for 30% of semis and other heavy vehicles to be EVs. Currently the market is 0%.

These are not averages or anything you might remember from CAFE regs, but hard numbers. Sell that many or don't sell any. That will simply destroy the auto industry. To say the economic impact will be uncharted is being unnecessarily charitable.

 

And no because you left out the government subsidy. Let's DO make them like other products and make them subject to the free market.

 

That's simply a hallucination.

Batteries by definition store charge. Make it bigger, it'll store more charge. But in the end they all have the limit of how much charge they can get in there.

And making the vehicle move pulls that charge out. Light loads and low speeds pulls it out relatively slowly. Heavier demands (ie- faster with heavier loads) pulls it out faster. And the battery naturally dies much quicker.

And lack of range under load particularly is the EVs Achilles heel. Limits practical application severely.

And that's why they'll never come close to matching an ICE powertrain.

 

That's the Prius Prime. Just as good looking as a 3, with a few less bells and whistles most people don't need. Enough EV charge for average everyday driving and a Hybrid. And a lot cheaper.

 

You have a point. What we do want is competition.

I think there are four main issues to consider:

We need a strong US auto manufacturing industry. US manufacturers are struggling with the huge cost of moving toward EV technology that they see as seriously important to their business. This is coming at a time when foreign sales of US ICE vehicles is in a significant downward trend. There are huge lots of unsaleable ICE vehicles in China. Europe is moving strongly toward EVs. US manufacturers are not wrong in their analysis of their futures. Supporting EV progress DOES lead to a competitive future.

Next, being solidly strapped to the absolute requirement for oil brings problems. World oil price was one of the two key components to our spike in inflation. Also, oil gets mentioned in many of the international conflicts in which we take part. Today, 70% of our oil consumption goes to transportation. We need to free ourselves from this absolute requirement for oil.

Next, climate change is real. Today, 70% of our oil consumption goes to transportation, with fossilized carbon mined and poured into our atmosphere. This is not a cycle, such as with trees consuming CO2 and then rotting/burning to release CO2. Oil is a totally new source of carbon that stays with us for a very long time. Climate scientists point to this carbon as a serious issue.

Next, analysis shows that there are significant health costs in burning oil products on our city streets. This not only costs individuals, but adds to federal and state health expenditures. CA and some other states see the benefit in spending to move more of transportation away from oil in part due to health cost.

Encouraging new emerging industry isn't rare, especially when there are national reasons for it.

 

Yes - hybrids get better mileage.

There are also plug-in hybrid Prius models (maybe the one you mention?). A friend of my brother has commuted in her PHEV for a couple years, stopping at a gas station twice! Both times were on a trip.

However, it appears that it's more common to just not plug them in. Due to this, China doesn't give plug-in hybrids a break in their harsh emissions and registration standards.

ConsumerReports notes that some PHEVs get worse mileage than a good ICE if you don't plug them in.

 

No. Encouraging. In the same way the government encourages home ownership and saving for retirement.

 

No forcing.

 

Who has forced you to buy an EV?

 

How much encouraging did the government give to switching from horses to ICE?

If you can't poduce an EV the consumer can afford on their own then don't produce one. Shifting cost from taxpayer to taxpayer does not make them cheaper.

EV's are not clean.

We are a minor blip in he ecological scheme. If that is your concern then make China to get in line with us and that will more than make up for our ICE cars

 

Presumably you think all tax deductions should disappear.

 

Quote me saying I bought one.

 

As we've seen with other technology, prices come down when there is competition and when manufacturing is made cost effective. Think IBM mainframes -> tablets and cell phones.

Today, there is less than effective competition in EVs.

And, the cost of manufacturing EVs by our legacy manufacturers is FABULOUSLY expensive. They are all borrowing billions of dollars in their attempts. The have to build whole new factories with new techniques in manufacturing. They are finding it necessary to develop new ways to sell cars to customers, as the dealership model is a serious problem for them. There are new dependencies on providers, such as with batteries, limits that are blocking delivery of some models they invested in building. Etc.

I don't see justification for your claim that EVs aren't clean. We do need to improve on electricity generation, but nothing is dirtier than burning oil on our city streets.

China is WAY on board. They are scaling up clean energy at a phenomenal rate - far outpacing fossil fuel. They are blocking the sale and registration of ICE vehicles. They have 300 EV manufacturing corporations in China - leading to serious competition. They are ahead of schedule on their goal of reducing greenhouse gas production.

 

Almost all those claims are false. Here's a link about one.
Thousands of Abandoned EVs Graveyard Expose China's ...

Vehiclesuggest
https://www.vehiclesuggest.com › thousands-of-aband...


Jun 17, 2023 — According to Chinese media reports, a startling sight unfolded on the outskirts of Hangzhou as thousands of deserted electric cars were found ...
Fake Chinese EV sales? - Oil (General) - Oil Price Community
Oil Price
https://community.oilprice.com › ... › Oil (General)


Jun 19, 2023 — The cars have been dumped and the sales claimed so that the producers can claim government subsidies which, it seems,. are more valuable than ...

BYD Most Likely Faked Its 2022 Sales Numbers, Real ...

autoevolution
https://www.autoevolution.com › News › U-turn


Feb 22, 2023 — Chinese carmaker BYD has had impressive sales results in the past year, leapfrogging other carmakers. These results are now questioned, as ...

 

to be fair... Unsold ICE cars are piling up on dealer lots

 

the talk is cars will soon be a subscription service vs owning them, Musk has moved in this direction

even trying to charge people to use all of their batteries

"Tesla locks 80 miles of customer’s battery range for $4,500 ransom"

https://electrek.co/2022/07/26/tesla-ransom-customer-over-80-miles-battery-range/

they plan to have subscriptions to use features like heated seats, ABS, etc....

 

Yes. I don't like this as a general direction of buying features after owning the car.

But, ICE cars have a long history of giving numerous options to buy - better seats, more power, better undercoating, maintenance packages, etc., etc.

They also sell on-star, traffic for gps, and other features after the purchase.

The Tesla approach is a little different, but not by much. In fact, with their direction you can try out abstaining these features and then unlocking them if you choose.


The issue in China is that there are 300 EV manufacturers. How many do YOU think are being successful? All 300???

Guess what? They aren't all winning!!!

So, you're bragging about how a company bought a whole bunch of EVs from god knows who, and then went bankrupt.


Seriously. You've got SQUAT!

In gauging BYD sales, one has to be careful for another reason, too.

They have been a major manufacturer of ICEs, plug-in hybrids, and EVs. In 2022 they stopped making ICEs, but they still build a lot of PHEVs as I understand it.

So, you have to be careful about whether you're talking about EVs, or PHEVs or getting data from earlier in 2022 that includes ICEs.

BTW, China hates PHEVs, because studies show that people just don't bother to plug them in. The result is that the full mileage is on the ICE engines, which are typically HORRIBLE when it comes to emissions. The move by China's government to cut off ICEs is not ignoring this fact.


Your hate for EVs is shielding you from the truth.

 

Dream on. When the power brownouts occur with solar and wind power, you electric car will be a great homeless shelter. I old enough that I will never be forced to buy one.

 

They may create incentives, but many of those incentives go into Republican-controlled states, which is why many of the green energy deals were eventually left out of the final GOP version of their budget proposal. but you still have plenty of choices if you want to pay high-interest rates when financing that new car for 6 or even 7 years in most cases. BTW, the Green New Deal failed in Congress, namely in the Senate, and the Compromise called the Inflation Reduction Act came into place which disproves your theory that they are trying to push it down your throat even though you have plenty of fossil fuel options. But then again, you want it both ways, cheap gas at $80 a barrel, which makes no business sense, GM was the one who made this decision BTW in 2021, and it was a decision by the Board of Directors there where they see dollars and sense, not politics. They do this for the benefit of the shareholders. So again, has nothing to do with the Biden Administration, Libs, Progs, or the left So try again Blues.

 

You have not seen the EV trucks, have you? At least recently.

 

LOL, so how are incentives and recommendations forcing people or companies into this? In 2021, GM made the decision to be full EV by 2025 and are investing some $6 billion dollars into the project. They think long-term at the corporate head in terms of dollars and sense, not politics.

Any estimates by the government of how mny EVs are are just recommendations, not force of law. Heavy duty EVs are about 5 years away with early examples by Tesla, Elon Musk you know, the free speech absolutist that you guys love so much, and GM. But most of this will be helped by Ford, GM, and Toyota. These are the current big three and will make tose production only if they see a profit motive.

But if you want to take this argument about incentives, then use both fossil fuel incentives, which drives the price down on fossil fuel by 10% to 15% based on the MSRP if those incentives were not there, and about 20% for EV vehicles on MSRP.

 

For every individual, there are LOTS of vehicles they would not choose for themselves.

Plus, even today, there are LOTS of sales of cars like Corvettes, Shelby Mustangs, Chargers, Cameros, etc.

I'd point out that these "muscle cars" are SLOW by EV standards, regardless of what their owners think, and they are far from reasonable choices for someone wanting to tow.

We're starting to see a collection of EV pickups, plus major improvements in distance and charging speed.

You've been dumping on EVs as if last year's vehicles are the definition of what EVs will be able to do. And, that is absolute nonsense.

 

when there is an oil shortage, electric will still be going, both have issue with a shortage of fuel

that was the old horse and buggy argument too

that said, I am old and will probably never own one either.... but easy to see they are the future eventually

 

You don't understand anything about regulation in this country, do you? In this country to sell a vehicle you have to get permission to do so in advance before you can move that vehicle off your property. Even just to load it onto a rail car on a track that runs through your property. Period. Incentives be damned.

That translates to, as a manufacturer you're only going to get permission to build 33% of your vehicles with ICEs. The rest need to be EVs. So to meet that the industry will have to give away EVs in order to sell ICE vehicles at all. I'll leave it to you and the other EV lovers to figure out the staggering magnitude of f**king up the economy like that.

Incentives are meaningless in this game.

 

No, he's dumping on EVs because of the real technical limitations of them. Acceleration, range and charging speed are minor considerations. The inability to do actual work are the real limiting factor that kills the concept.