5 Iran tankers sailing to Venezuela amid US pressure tactics

Discussion in 'United States' started by Iranian Monitor, May 17, 2020.

  1. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/24/tre...ins-after-gasoline-delivery-to-venezuela.html
    https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-...-shipments-to-Venezuela-RBsMccUHNS/index.html
     
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  2. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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  3. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    Since the US flagged vessels which operate close to Iran's shores are not 'able and willing' to defend themselves, I have given up trying to disprove an irrelevant tautology you have constructed about Iran not being able to seize ships that are 'willing and able to defend themselves."

    More importantly than any artificial semantic construction that seems to work for you, and of more relevance to the subject of this thread: once the US understood that Iran would reciprocate any piracy it might have been contemplating regarding Iranian vessels delivering fuel to Venezuela, and seize US flagged vessels operating in the Persian Gulf area (as it had done with the British tanker it seized), it showed it was not 'willing' to risk testing Iran on the issue.
     
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  4. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    We've been over this.
    Your idea that, by definition, ships that are willing and able to defend themselves cannot be "seized" has no basis in reality.
    Just like your position that Iran has the capacity to 'seize" such ships.

    As Iran has no such capacity, the US has no reason to take seriously any of Iran's threats to seize US ships; your claims to that effct are, at best, laughable.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  5. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    I would view it as a humiliation for Venezuela which, after all, is itself an oil producing country. I may also mention that nobody here cares what the Iranians "hail."
     
  6. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    Next round appears to be heating up! The neocons smell blood -- they imagine that some of the woes Iran is suffering from due to the combination of things on its plate, will not allow it to respond properly. And they are now seeking to take the next step, as always looking for some pseudo 'legal cover' for the piracy they are plotting.

    At some point, Iran will have give the neocons what they are looking for so desperately. Yes, that could lead to all out war and Iran getting pretty much destroyed in the process. But even that is better than letting them destroy Iran, step-by-step, at little cost, with Iran not having much left in the tank to hit back at all. If Iran hits back hard, very hard, maybe they will run away. Maybe not. But if it doesn't, it will invite getting hit again and again. And with each blow, it will have less to hit back with.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-seeks-to-seize-iranian-fuel-bound-for-venezuela-11593667040
    U.S. Seeks to Seize Iranian Fuel Bound for Venezuela
    This is the latest action by the U.S. to go after shipping networks that help Iran evade U.S. sanctions
     
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  7. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    In your imagination.

    Tell us again about Iran's non-existent capacity to seize US ships which are willing and able to defend themselves.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  8. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It has all been gone into on this board more than once. I would think Trump would not want it with the election coming ....but his people would possibly do everything they can to get this started as Trump may well not win the election even though there is only Biden against him. Trump is unlikely to want Body Bags going home to the US unless he is voted in again and then he likely will do what he chooses as either there is no more Presidential elections for him or he intends dictatorship. Only a Fool would attack Iran...but she needs freedom. Will the Democrats get rid of the sanctions brought in because the US does not stick by International Treaties. I would not count on it.

    or does the US think it can get away with it so far from Iran's home? That is another question.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  9. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    If the Iranians try to seize a US ship, find out they can't, and then sink said US ship, Trump will react forcefully against Iran - as he should. Iran will not like it, but will be powerless to do anything about it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why on earth do you think they would do that? I cannot see them seizing one of yours ship right next to yourselves. I wouldn't believe it if I heard it had happened.

    It is good that they got in and were not stopped from doing business. I have to admit I have not been following this and don't usually post when that is the case. But it looks like Venezuela and Iran have been able to do business. All then seems fine. Last time I looked there was talk of Venezuelan ships coming out to help them in. Did that happen.
     
  11. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Ask Iranian Monitor.
    He believes Iran will react to the US seizure of Iranian ships with the seizure of US ships in the gulf.
    He cannot say how Iran will seize US ships that are willing and able to defend themselves, but he believe they will try - and if they cannot do so, they will sink said ships.
    FWIW, he also believes a ship that is willing and able to defend herself - by definition - cannot be seized.
     
  12. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ah! That is different. He believes that if you yourselves go against the law they would respond. I am sure Iran will have thought of the possibility of you doing that and what they would do it you were to. Hopefully the US will not break International Law and all will continue peacefully.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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  13. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. No one knows why.
    Why do you think the seizure of Iranian fuel headed to Venezuela violates international law?
     
  14. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well I am not a lawyer so this is guessing. It would be an act of War and given that it would not be in self defence it would be against International Law.
     
  15. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. That is guessing.
     
  16. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It would be an act of war. I am pretty sure of that. Otherwise it would be theft.

    The only reason War is acceptable is self Defence. It would certainly be at the very least an act of theft with either way the US on the wrong side of the law. It would hence be expected that the US would try to pretend that it was Iran who had attacked them first, should they decide to act as outlaws. Lets just hope they go by International Law and peace remains. It will be good for both Iran and Venezuela to be able to do business. You will be aware that the US problems with Iran are no fault of Iran but are the responsibility of the US for going against an International Treaty and then blackmailing the rest of the world to do as she wants. Lets really hope the US gets its act together and finds something better to do than violence.

    I need to go now.;)
     
  17. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    The US is trying to get an 'asset forfeiture' order and will seek the seizure under the pretext of seizing a vessel to satisfy 'civil judgments' issued by US courts against Iran. The issue under so-called 'international law' in such a case would be a bit more complicated. The pretext used, however, wouldn't change the nature of the act of piracy. Iran could reciprocate by using the same excuse. These are pretexts.

    As for how Iran would respond to such an act by the US, the best evidence is that Iran would reciprocate. No one can be sure until it happens, but that is what Iran did when the Brits used pretexts to seize an Iranian tanker in Gibraltar. Iran reciprocated seizing a British tanker. And when the US was threatening to interfere with Iran's vessels sailing to Venezuela last month, Iran did warn the US it would reciprocate and respond in kind.

    There are many US flagged and US owned vessels which enter and exit the Persian Gulf. Seizing them would not be a huge hurdle for Iran, although the US has a significant naval presence and the US navy might try to interfere. Then it becomes either another game of 'chicken' to see who blinks, or the whole thing could go as far as the two sides firing against one another. If that happened and Iran was determined to stick its ground, the US navy and bases in the region could be hit very hard by Iran. The issue would then be the kind of retaliation the US would engage in and where that leads.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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  18. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, that does sound pretty much what would be expected. Seems a waste of time to me....and yes it is a game of chicken but the US ought to know how Iran would act. Trump did get the message last time that it would not be in his interest to have a war with Iran. He is sounding very unstable at the moment but if he was to have any chance of winning the Presidential election I would not think he would take it further. Leaves Iran still needing some ending though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  19. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    You are still guessing.
     
  20. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Iranian Monitor has kindly filled me in on the situation.
     
  21. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Iran has no capacity to seize ships with the capacity and the will to defend themselves - so, no.
     
  22. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    What is not guessing is that Iran will retaliate.
     
  23. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Most likely ia a manner no one outside Iran will notice.
     
  24. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    Just guessing, but I expect they'll sink a couple tankers.
     
  25. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. You're guessing.
     

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