A Gut Check For The Religious

I'm not too familiar with the rules in this area so if this thread violates them, my apologies in advance.

However, I wanted to ask the religious (of any religion) an honest question. I wanted to challenge them on a basic thing.

The question is have you ever, honestly, heard God, seen God, experienced God or anything heavenly that you can say and describe, as a definite fact, was God? And if so, could you please describe it because I can tell you I'd absolutely beg for real proof of the existence of God. It wold mean I survive beyond death in some manner.

The reason I am asking this is because I don't have anything against the idea of believing in the concept of God, but I am offended by the regimentation of religion. How people do not come to know God on their own, they are taught to know God, and their knowledge of God is based only on ambient information about him in our society. I would have gone so far as to say those people who say they hear and see God are lying to themselves for some reason or another the way some people say they are in love and stress to prove it all the more when, deep down, they know they are not.

I think a far better belief is found when religion is removed and a person- if they ever interpret or conceive of the existence of God for themselves- should establish their own view of him. You should not have to go to Sunday school, or Church, or have to read a Bible to know who God is. He should be evident, and if he is not evident, maybe your faith is mistaken.

But more importantly, if you consider belief to be a matter of Supreme Faith (believing despite the absolute absence of any definitive proof) then you should shun religion all the more. Because religion is a false idol. It attempts to give a form to a being who has not revealed himself in any way. If God remains beyond detection, why is there stories accounting his presence in the world- indeed his direct involvement?

In my very own opinion, I wanted to challenge all people of all religions to ask them, very honestly, have you ever really experienced God, or is all you know hearsay? This does not remove the fact that you believe in God, but it challenges how you believe and why you believe the way you do.

 

From birth to the age of 18 or 19, I was a Christian, so I suppose I can comment. Personally, I have never experienced anything that one like myself might consider a 'godly experience'.

 

I don't know if I have or if I haven't "really experienced God." I just know that watching family members that are religious vs. agnostic, that the part of the family that is religious is more stable and happier. Being religious works for me. The structure sometimes forces me to do things that I really would rather not do at that time. Many times, though, in that situation of doing things for obligation rather than choice, I have ended up with a positive experience. To me, organized religion helps keep me on keel. You may not need that, but as I said before, it works for me.

 

Well said. As a Deist I found God through my own investigations. I reject religion as nothing more than man made dogma that at best is just faith run amuck and at worst an intentional form of control.

That's the way I see it. Where we are born plays a huge part on the faith that many serve. Case in point that religion is one of the worlds biggest peer pressure groups.

My belief is based upon experiences that I have had that I cannot find a rational explanation for. For me faith began where my reason ended. Can I prove God? Nope as it is impossible to prove a theological intangible.

 

I can tell you that I had thoughts and feelings that I attributed to God back when I was a believer. Unfortunately, though, I expect that's due to a believing is seeing-type effect. People also all too often just don't realise how tricky the brain can be. We can feel and perceive things that just aren't real, especially when we have some inner desire for them to be real.

Michael Shermer is one fellow who knows a thing or two about this type of thing, and he's written some books about it..

 

Yes; and if you have a conscience, so have you.

 

I can't figure how this would violate anything but thanks for considerations.

Survival after death is not predicated on a god or gods so even without gods you may have a spirit that survives. Even more so if you are talking about the Abrahamic envisioning of God. (Funny story the idea of living beyond death for everyone is not really part of the Hebrew Bible's theology) But to answer your question you have to answer what is god? To an evangelical Christian sees God in many things. God whispers to them when in prayer. God makes them cross paths with others. For them God's presence in their daily lives is so real the question itself is like asking them to prove they have lungs or a right arm. To someone like me God is not a person, place or thing that you can touch and interact with in that manner. We, as people, strive to engage a godness in the world. We bring God into our world through acts that make the world better. (yes we have to define what makes it better, feeding the poor for example to some is no brainer but not everyone). To man God is a celestial concierge they call on when they need something. If they get it God did it. If not....well then they forget about. So a direct answer is really really hard to get.

Some people do find God on their own. But religion is also a bit of tribal thing. See you see God as a him. Many don't. Religion helps us create the parameters for understanding God. Some people lie to themselves, some even lie to their flock as preachers. But I know a lot of people who sincerely believe that they are having encounters with the divine and frankly nothing will change that. They aren't lying to themselves.

There you go again with he. See you already have a concept of God. Our culture drips with God. Religion again helps define the box one's understanding of God can fit in. But if like me God is not personal and intervening...perhaps prophets are the way to reach God. See we can't deduce everything in the universe we need people who can reach deeper beyond what is known. Why would exploring God be so different than exploring physics?

Here is where you go off the rails. Religion is a cultural construct to help explore God or godness or whatever. It is not a false idol since one doesn't worship the faith (or shouldn't) but uses it as a tool to worship or explain.

Again it goes back to what is God or more precisely When is God? I think you should explore more on your own, read more about religions that are not so stereotypic and perhaps we can talk.

 

Yes,...

What the Bible calls God in the stories it relates is only definitely defined after Jesus appears in 32AD and tells the Jews that He has become indwelled with a certain spirit which he recognizes as Truth.

"I am the Truth, and the way to everlasting life for our species," he says, using the words supplied by this god inside the kingdom within him.

What I believe he meant was that he had gained access into the closed system of the Unconscious mind which man to this point in our evolution, is not normally privy to interact consciously with.
This Unconscious mind is that immortal genetically reproduced part of our psyche, (i.e.soul), which is "born again" with every new birth.

We now have scientific evidence of this mysterious and hidden entity inside us all.
We now know that as if a Third Eye, this good shepherd is watching us and adding to its accumulated knowledge of the Reality mankind has been experiencing now for 200,000 years.

Instincts and emotions are contained inside this body of memory, as well as the ability to interact with the Unconscious mind of other people, usually unbeknownst to us consciously.
Some people have had a break through into the realms of this Unconscious mental kingdom, usually as if an external voice or and hallucination or a mystical peak experience, the Unconscious has come into us, into our conscious mind.

Apparently, whereas we can not at this point in our evolution decide to enter into that realm, the Unconscious mind can and does send "angel" or messengers (as the Hebrew word actually means) to us.
We get these "angels" in ways that we are certain the thoughts and message did not originate within us, i.e.; not in our Conscious mind.

Though religious people down thru the ages have reported experience with this phenomenon, and I believe the Bible writers have actually written long passages and even whole books of scripture, basically dictated by this source, there are explicit example, now, among our scientists who agree they, too, have had "breakthroughs" which came from such a source.

 

I quite like the idea of religion being idolatry. have often thought that if a god existed as an ostensibly benevolent entity, it might be horrified by religion. can quite easily imagine a great sky fairy tsk tsking over how fallen the flock are. epic fail, as the kiddies say

 

Religion is the vehicle which the Collective Unconscious mind has chosen, in particular, the Jews, as the means by which to reveal itself to our collective consciousness, when mankind had reached that point in time, today, when we can understand its presence and the immense grace of this entity to the advancement and leadership of mankind, globally.
Religion has gathered the whole world into a virtual classroom, where now, whether religious or otherwise, the facts will be presented to everyone, everywhere, and forever advance us as humans into the future.

 

I stand before you as a witness, someone who has seen God, Jesus, and The HOLY spirit(almost every night), and even Satan in the Spiritual realm if I fall off God's intended path. I am not the first! As a matter of fact God revealed to me that I am one of the last. But people make the choice to not believe, people pick darkness over light, Satan over God. Know that this is a snowball effect of Adam having eaten the apple, that is why Jesus came to die for us and made it 100% easy to gain entry accept him as your savior.

 

I dig the apple thing, but did Adam also put pineapple on his pizza? it would explain his subsequent plummet.

 

Kinda like a little night sip before going to bed, huh? I can understand that.

I'd just offer that dealing with certain truths of life, as I see it, like death being final, is disturbing only because I have been brought up to believe or expect something more from it. Religion fills you with endless dreams and positivities for those that follow and obey it's rules. Reality taught me that life is not created for my convenience. Happiness and sadness- loss and fortune are all incidental. The good suffer with the bad. The hardest thing was to accept the reality and be comfortable with it.

Yeah, I don't think you have to even read to know that. I'm sure everyone has those experiences where they felt or experienced a sensation they attributed to something supernatural, but it turned out to be misguided. I get a profound feeling reading the Christian bible, the Koran, Buddhist texts, and Hindu texts. It's very poetic, artistic, and full of ideals. If you notice, the best speeches are similar to that. It is why politicians craft their speeches into stories. They are emotionally potent tools.

That, and the same religious sensation is experienced by nearly everyone who practices a certain religion from ancient times to know. Literally tens of thousands of Gods, and in their time, there are the religious who believe wholeheartedly that they have communed or witnessed a supernatural act.

I'm not sure I follow what you mean.

 

Can you describe any instances where you believe you definitely witnessed God, or communed with him? I don't mean voices in your head, vague feelings, or the "he helped bring about this act" kind of thing. I mean definite instances that are, beyond a doubt, God. I mean in a bit of detail, also.

I never understood the story of Adam. Technically, God didn't want mankind to be as we are. We were supposed to be relatively mindless animals moving about the earth. The fact that we can reason at all was a crime in God's eyes.

 

Go to my website www.becauseofheaven.com on the first page there is an account of when Jesus came to me and gave me the gift to see. I see every night by the holy spirit so i have many accounts. This isn't me, but this comes from the holy spirit and is something that can be taken away.

know that knowledge is NOTHING without love.. wisdom is nothing without love for it gives way for people to twist the purpose of God's orginal design which is Love and Life.. that is why there was no reason for Adam to eat the apple because he invited sin to dwell in us.

 

Conscience is the wordless voice of God in every human being, by which we know right from wrong regardless of what we've been taught by other people.

 

Aye. That's one more red flag for the religious to consider - are they being lulled by emotionally powerful prose and imagery? People need to learn to beware of this manipulation, whether by religious leaders, cult leaders or politicians..

 

Well, that's the problem. If God isn't something you can touch or interact with, then why does he appear in the Bible as flaming tornadoes and burning bushes? Why does he consistently intervene in the world in the Bible in definite, doubtless ways and yet he remains hidden these days?

My use of 'him' is just a figure of speech. I suppose I could say they weren't lying to themselves, exactly, but there is no concrete basis for their belief. A person sincerely believes they heard or saw God. It's no different than believing you saw the serial killer on the News or a UFO in the sky. These are vague things, and like all vague things, subject to interpretation.

How exactly does it "help"? Does it offer a truth or a lie? Who's lying? First, there is no proof of God, just a bunch of people proclaiming his existence. There is no proof to his intentions, thoughts, or beliefs, just a bunch of people and things claiming to know. There is nothing substantial about religion.

The difference between religion and science is that religion does not explore or experiment. It does not seek God, it creates God. Science seeks out and explores the truths of the world. Science demands proof. Religion just offers baseless explanations. There could be a God. It's not inconceivable, but there is no proof. None. Religion attempts to substitute proof with vague correlations- mostly attempting to suggest that God seems to exist increasingly within the narrower and narrower field of the unknown. But, at the heart of it, any religion that proposes a God can be disproved by science because all those religions give God a form impossible to known scientific law.

That's where my problem comes in. If you believe in God, that's fine, but it would just be that. You wouldn't have any idea what he was, what his intentions are, or anything. A belief in God would be like my belief in the 12th dimension. Possible...but completely baseless.

How do you know this construct accurately represents God? What makes you sure you don't believe a falsehood?

That's my point. I can't find out anything about God except by reading someones book full of airy, ethereal interpretations or opinions on the matter. All these books were written by men. The Bible? I suppose you believe your's was written by God or inspired by God, but it has company. Many other conflicting Bibles. What's going on? Does God like confusion?

 

You will need to tell us what you define god as.

Freud also revealed about 1920 that we hear the voices of a Subconscious collection of archetypes which are very much focused upon the urges, drives, desires, wants, and such self centered motivations.







1) Id = Lucifer
2) Libido = Satan
3) Ego = Mammon
4) Anima = Devil
5) Self = Beelzebub
6) Superego = False Prophet
7) Harmony = False shepherd
Conscience = Good Shepherd

 

Did Jesus have a form or image? Can you describe what he said in detail any one instance...here on this site...for my convenience, lol. I probably wouldn't know where to look on your site.

 

Its easy to figure backwards and identify the Original Sin since Jesus in 32AD told us that through unselfishness, and with charitable acts we will be collected together as His sheep. (see Matthew 25:31-to end)

Obviously, as child psychologist Jean Piaget informed us in the 20th century, babies are inherent born self centered as part of the Human condition.
This is a necessary but nevertheless, genetic flaw in us which we must learn to discard and love our fellow man.

 

A wordless voice? How do I understand right from wrong from a voice without words, unless you mean feelings of guilt? I'm not sure, but are you saying emotion is evidence of God?

 

But God created those genes? Why would he have created the flaw he teaches against?

God creates a human and tells him not to do human things.

 

The Unconscious mind doesn't seem to communicate with words, per se, which is a Right Hemispheric activity.
Dreams, visions, and sudden rushes of insight occur.

Here is an example which is pretty famous, but common among many scientists who were so moved by the experience they had as to cry out "Eureka."


In 1920 when Neils Bohr was getting on a bus and thinking intently only of his daughter, the entire structure of quantum mechanics came to him in a flash (as he describes it). Where that flash or intelligence came from, and the timing of it, this is the Pure Intelligence I'm speaking about.

This experience revealed the inner immanent God to which Christians refer when they speak of a personal relationship with God.
Truth is the key to entering the memory bank of the phylogenetic Unconscious Mind.

The phylogenetic Unconscious Mind is resurrected when we are born again using our Genetic Code available in the in the blood of the Human Gene Pool:

 

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Flaws?

Basketball players exhibit amazing practical and genius like attributes of the Libido when used constructively.

What I am saying is that if one becomes dominated by the thinking of just one of these entities, and ignores Harmony or Conscience, or the other inputs which are trying to inform him about the real world, he is possessed by evil urges.