After mocking Trump for promoting hydroxychloroquine, journalists acknowledge it might treat coronav

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by Gatewood, Apr 2, 2020.

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  1. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When you go to your doctor with COVID-19, be sure to tell him NOT to risk your life with HCQ. Cuz it might not work.

    In all seriousness, it's up to your doctor whether or not he or she will prescribe the drug. Trump made people aware of a drug which doctors have said has worked for their patients. If people like you want to wait until a two-six month clinical trial has not been completed, to show how well it works to treat this virus, that's up to you. For all intense and purposes, the drug has been proven to be extremely safe. The worst that might happen, is it didn't work for you. So it's a dead issue.
     
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  2. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Glad you mentioned Aspirin

    20-30 years ago we used to hand it out in the hospitals like water. THEN we discovered the platelet inhibition effect (see where you list says “bleeding”). The ISIS II trial proved its use in prevention and treatment of MI but at 1/6th the dose that we used to give fourth - 6th hourly for pain. (100mgm daily versus 600 mgm qid)

    In the eighties Australia banned the sale of aspirin/phenacetin drugs (Bex and Vincent’s) due to an endemic of renal failure.

    Lessons learnt

    1. We do not “know everything” about every drug or it’s effects at differing doses
    2. Aspirin has been around since 1899 and we are STILL learning new information
    3. We do not know the required dose for HCQ as most commonly it is used for malaria and is only a weekly dose
    4. We do that HCQ causes blindness if the total dose exceeds 1000mgm
     
  3. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Except
    We have no real evidence it works

    As for the 80% death rate

    I would love to see your source data
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
  4. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm just playing your game. We should not be promoting ventilators, since eight out of ten patients die when placed on ventilators. Until we have conducted a months long clinical study that can demonstrate that ventilators work for this virus, it's reckless to used them.
     
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  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Making people aware of a drug that is supported by anecdotal evidence has nothing at all to do with the job of the president. Doctors have information about this one drug as well as others that have been proposed and are in testing. Having a patient ask for the Trump drug makes no sense as there could be better choices. And, your notion that there are no negative side effects is nonsense.

    As I have pointed out, there are reasons for not having Trump proclaim a solution.

    There is NO treatment today that would suggest that the CDC prescribed separation, mask policy, travel restrictions within the US or any other measure is no longer needed.

    And Trump fails to promote those measures. Instead he pretends to know something about what doctors should do!!!

    Trump should be pushing the means for fighting the spread of this disease - measures the PEOPLE can take.
     
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  6. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Where are you getting your statistics?
     
  7. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here you go:

    80% of NYC's coronavirus patients who are put on ventilators ultimately die, and some doctors are trying to stop using them

    New York City officials have said at least 80% of coronavirus patients who were put on ventilators there ultimately died, the AP reported. New York state has the most confirmed coronavirus cases and deaths in the US.

    There have also been reports of unusually high death rates among patients on ventilators elsewhere in the US and in China and the UK, the AP said.

    Some doctors are also concerned that ventilators could be further harming certain coronavirus patients, as the treatment is hard on the lungs, the AP reported.

    Dr. Tiffany Osborn, a critical-care specialist at the Washington University School of Medicine, told NPR on April 1 that ventilators could actually damage a patient's lungs.

    "The ventilator itself can do damage to the lung tissue based on how much pressure is required to help oxygen get processed by the lungs," she said.

    I do not care if clinical studies have not run their course yet. If I catch COVID-19, I'll ask for this HCQ, since it's a very safe drug. You can decide not to take it, and wait around for six months until a study is completed, that's your choice. All Trump did was make the nation aware that some doctors have found success.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
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  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That's equivalent only if you also suggest that Trump should be promoting the use of vents (or of not using them).

    And, I would again point out that Trump doesn't know squat about vents and should leave that issue to doctors - who are still working out best practices for using the various kinds of breathing support that exists when treating COVID.
     
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  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't prove anything AT ALL.

    Again, Trump needs to stay the heck OUT of prscribing treatment.

    If hospitals say they need PPE and vents, he should be working to provide PPE and vents.
     
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  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Your cite also states that move ventilators need to be supplied, as hospitals need them.

    My state gave 400 vents to NY.

    And, unlike this president, "gave to NY" does not mean giving them to some retail outlet that will put them up for bid in the US and the world and then have FEMA use our tax dollars to compete for them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
  11. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In your attack on Trump for repeating the hope in the stories he heard from actual medical doctors, you list 9 total offenses from Trump, and only one related to the virus - one you're wrong on but I'll get to that in a minute.

    The fact that you're post is 8 to 1 on things you hate about Trump that have nothing to do with helping actual patients using hydroxychloroquine or anything else proves that your complaint isn't his mentioning of any particular medication but, instead, it's Trump.

    According to the Anti-Trump rag, GQ.com, Trump first mentioned hydroxychloroquine on March 19. If there are any other hopeful drugs that you think he should have mentioned, please provide any links to any articles from any study that identified what those drugs might be.

    What about this article from Business Insider on March 20: Four potential coronavirus candidates.

    1. remdesivir - the article says: President Donald Trump has touted the drug as having a "real chance" against the disease, and the World Health Organization called it "the most promising candidate therapy."

    That's weird, I thought he only ever mentioned, let alone touted, hydroxychloroquine.

    2. keletra - an HIV drug. The article says: early research into Kaletra's effectiveness as a coronavirus cure have been disappointing. Chinese scientists found in a study last month that the drug didn't improve patient mortality rates, reduce the detectable amount of the virus, or shorten hospital stays

    No reason for Trump to mention that, is there? But wait! There's more! The article says: But in Australia, University of Queensland researchers have said that when combined with another drug, chloroquine, Kaletra led to the recovery of some of the first COVID-19 patients in the country.

    3. chloroquine - Yes.. the "other" one that Trump touted. The article says: Early research and anecdotal reports suggest the drug may be able to fight COVID-19, which would make it stand out as a cheap and scalable solution. "Some countries, including China, South Korea, and even Belgium, have put chloroquine directly in their treatment guidelines for coronavirus,"

    Of course the left keeps touting (the word of the year, probably) China as the world's best in dealing with the virus. Guess we better knock them off that throne since they're using chloroquine.

    4. monoclonal antibodies - The article says: Various companies are working to develop preventive coronavirus treatments in the form of monoclonal antibodies — a type of protein that uses natural immune system functions to neutralize viruses.

    Notice the article says, "working to develop." That means that it may come some day. There's no guarantee there will ever be such a therapy. No need for Trump to mention it at all. It's interesting medically and scientifically but Trump's message was a message of hope. What might come in months is not "hope" to those whose family members are dying today.

    But, just the same, Trump being the great, inclusive, leader that he is, ABC News, no friend of Trump's, credits him with touting the work in plasma based treatments - which produce polyclonal and monoclonal antibodies: At a White House news conference, Trump and Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Dr. Stephen Hahn cited the malaria drug chloroquine, along with remdesivir, an experimental antiviral from Gilead Sciences, and possibly using plasma from survivors of COVID-19, the disease the new virus causes.

    It is a lie that Trump only "touts" hydrochloroquine. He has been touting a lot of options from the very beginning.

    The attacks on Trump are only intended to stop the use of helpful therapies identified by actual medical doctors because body count matters come November. That the left is fighting so much against it and its use to save lives should be all the evidence we need to know that, in reality, hydroxychloroquine can help save a lot of lives.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
  12. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually, hydroxychloroquine is often used prophylactically for malaria, safely, for months at a time - often not a weekly dose.

    To prevent malaria: Start taking the medicine 2 weeks before entering an area where malaria is common. Continue taking the medicine regularly during your stay and for at least 8 weeks after you leave the area.

    Also, for lupus or arthritis, months at a time:

    When treating lupus or arthritis, hydroxychloroquine is usually given daily for several weeks or months. For best results, keep using the medication as directed. Talk with your doctor if your symptoms do not improve after 6 months of treatment.

    Define "total dose". Because, depending on the reason for prescribing, dosages are up to 800mg per day, daily, not weekly, for months at a time:

    Usual Adult Dose for Systemic Lupus Erythematosus
    Initial dose: 400 mg (310 mg base) orally 1 to 2 times a day; this dose may be continued for several weeks or months, depending on patient response
    Maintenance dose: 200 to 400 mg (155 to 310 mg base) orally daily


    If your doctor says that you're probably going to die but we have this drug that some are touting some success. We have no tests to say it works and it may cause you heart or vision problems, what are you going to do? You don't have to answer because the correct answer is that you're going to make up your own mind. It doesn't matter if you answer take it or not take it; the key is that it was YOUR choice. Who do you think you are to take that choice from anyone else?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
  13. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You sent 400 ventilators for Cuomo to put in a closet? What a waste when people might be dying elsewhere for lack of ventilators..
     
  14. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for not including a link - I found it anyway.

    ((((Sigh))))

    I cannot link to it because it was a pre published journal article distributed to health professionals

    What has been found is that there are two separate pathologies being seen. Don’t blame the doctors for not seeing this earlier it is just that the signs and symptoms of the two were very similar. Having picked up on a differing pathophysiology expect those numbers to improve

    The medical profession is trying multiple avenues of investigations not just the one Trump drug

    https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.120.016219

    But go for it

    Try a drug with known severe side effects that may or may not work
     
  15. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Wow, the people are Breitbart are scary stupid. Those were in reserve for the peak. They didn't need them yet but expected or expect to. If you wait until a patient needs a ventilator before you go out and find one, the patient dies.

    You should stick with sources of news that understand at least what a child can.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
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  16. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Since it suppresses the immune system, using it prophylactically for Corona could be a deadly choice.

    The fallacy is in thinking there is some definitive moment when you know you aren't going to make it. Generally things don't work that way. The doctor would more likely be saying, "You are extremely sick. You might recover and you might not. It is touch and go right now. This drug might help or it might kill you."

    It isn't going to be, "You are going to die so you might as well try anything".
     
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  17. Hairball

    Hairball Well-Known Member

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    How did you come to that stupid conclusion?
     
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  18. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They were hoarded for a peak that never happened. Did Breitbart lie? No; Cuomo is hoarding ventilators while, in other places, people are going without them who need them today.
     
  19. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Ooooh! By reading this thread

    And by the fact Trump has invested millions in buying up HCQ but not other drugs
     
  20. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Really? Just curious; where did you get your MD or Pharmacist training? How is it that you know more than literally thousands of doctors who are giving it? How is it that you know more than the international medical community who is saying it helps?

    It's funny that the left accuses Trump of playing doctor for simply saying that there are several drugs that might help while they, the left, try to strip doctors of medical decisions for their political agenda.
     
  21. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Once again, a dishonest fake-quote. What does happen is that doctors say, "if we don't do something different, you're probably going to die." They don't say, "try anything." They would say, in effect:

    "There is a drug cocktail that the international medical community, including the widely touted world leaders in managing their own virus - the Chinese, and those brilliant Australian researchers at Queensland University, along with many, many, others in the United States and around the globe, have found to help in many cases with very few, anecdotal only, reports of complications.

    "Like any drugs, there are some risks of side effects but, with over 5 million prescriptions a year in the United States, and over a billion doses given in the United States alone, the occurrence of these side effects is rare and this has long been known to be one of the safest drugs in the modern medical arsenal.

    "Given that what's going on in your body right now is far more dangerous than any likely side effect to this drug, and considering that the drug is so very safe, I'd like to give it to you. Is that OK?
    "
     
  22. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Evidence demonstrating? Where's the double-blind study? Hypocritical hogwash.

    Recently, it has been reported - you mean anecdotally? More hypocritical hogwash.

    Thsu, intake of ACEIs/ARBs might probably relieve? Really? What does that even mean, might probably relieve?

    You really have not just double-standards, but so many standards for everyone else and then just one standard for Trump: STOP TRUMP at all costs, ALL costs, even hundreds of thousands of human lives.
     
  23. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's the link, finally out, and in another thread started by another member. I'm posting the link to the article for reference and to camp_steveo's thread to discuss the report. Respecting steveo's thread, I won't discuss this particular report further in this thread.

    Article:
    http://covexit.com/professor-didier-raoult-releases-the-results-of-a-new-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-study-on-1061-patients/

    Thread:
    http://politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/professor-raoult-releases-results-of-new-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-study-on-1061-patients.571084/
     
  24. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    I had to cut and paste your response to Willreadmore as it was caught up in the quote - I have also removed your personal attacks

    Now why do you believe this is “the only treatment to show positive results?

    Ivermectin has a better track record with effect against viruses than HCQ does
     
  25. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What Ivermectin has done against other viruses doesn't matter. What's been the most effective against the Wuhan Virus?

    I don't know all the considerations government has gone through but also consider that hydroxychloroquine is off patent so very cheap and any drug maker can make it.. Not so with patented drugs.

    Very hard for government to buy the millions of doses they're looking for - especially considering the way the left attacked Trump over a mutual fund that, following a long chain, yielded about a 1000 dollar or less interest by Trump. Imagine if Trump had purchased a few billion dollars of a patented drug and either Trump, any member of his family, no matter how remote, or any top aid or their family, or any donor or their family, had a mutual fund that, even unknown, owned a share of a company that owned the patent.
     

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