Ask a Jew! What the Heck, why not....?

Strictly speaking, the ''Arab Israeli conflict'' could not have begun before the creation of Israel, because there was no such thing as an Israeli. Under British rule, all residents of Palestine were officially called ''Palestinians.'' I was referring to the''Arab/Jewish'' conflict, which became the ''Arab/Israeli'' conflict upon the creation of Israel, which both you and I know began long before the beginning of WW2, never mind the aftermath.

Correct. Religious Jews had been living in Palestine throughout the Ottoman era, in relative peace and harmony with their Muslim and Christian neighbours.

Nope, not at all. For starters, remember I posted this link to a list of attacks on Arabs by a Jewish organisation well before the start of WW2? Here it is again in case you missed it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

I didn't say anything about anti-semitism being ''justified.'' Just because someone has motivation to do something, does not mean that the action is justified. Whether or not an action is ''justified'' is a matter of opinion, whereas an event which provides ''motivation'' is a fact.

They had the power and ability to carry out attacks such as those in the list I posted a link to.

Again, I am not claiming that attacks on anyone are ''justified,'' because that's a matter of opinion. The reasons for Arabs hating Jews were attacks on Arabs by Jews, such as those in the list I posted a link to, and mass Jewish immigration, with the intention of establishing Jewish control.

In a word, ''Zionism.'' Did you see the New York Times article from 1897 that someone posted earlier? Here it is again in case you missed it.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50A1FF93D5C12738DDDAC0994D0405B8785F0D3

It was well known at the time that Zionist Jews intended to colonise Palestine.

As we have established, Jews lived in relative peace and harmony in Palestine throughout the Ottoman era. It was only when Zionist Jews began immigrating, with the intention of establishing Jewish control, that friction between Jews and Muslim and Christian Arabs began. The more Zionist Jews immigrated, the more friction there was. Upon the advent of the Balfour Declaration, the British invasion accompanied by increased Zionist Jewish immigration, friction increased further, which led to the Palestine riots in 1920. That was the first sign of any major trouble.

It's important to remember that at that time the British and Jews were on the same side, and it wasn't until after WW2 that the Jews began killing the British in any significant numbers.

To understand what motivated the Arabs to hate Jews, one really has to try to put themselves in their shoes. Supposing the US had a war with China that China won, and the Chinese decided that they were going to establish an homeland for Muslims in the western half of the US, and so occupied the US with Chinese troops and large numbers of Muslims began immigrating from the middle east. Some might even buy land.

How do you think most would Americans react? Would you expect them to agree to live in peace with their new Muslim neighbours, under Muslim rule?

Personally I think some Americans would be likely to take violent action against both the occupying Chinese troops, and Muslim immigrants. Just as some Arabs took violent action against both British troops, and Jewish immigrants.

Does that seem logical to you?

I believe you have blamed Arab anti-semitism on a number of factors so far, including Hitler and the British.

Can you support this notion with anything other than your opinion?

But you have agreed that you would have at least some marginal feelings of hostility towards anyone who told you that his god says your house and land belong to him, and booted you out onto the street. So why would an Arab who suffers the same fate not also have ''cause'' to hate whoever threw his family out onto the street? Why would it be rational for you to have feelings of hostility towards someone who does this to you, but irrational for an Arab to have similar feelings?

Turkey has good relations with Israel.

Iran had good relations with Israel when it was ruled by a US/UK puppet.

There are not several million Arab Israelis. The Arabs that live in Israel are mostly descended from those who were not expelled or refused the right to return.

As I mentioned above, the first major sign of trouble was in 1920. Here are the facts to support my argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tel_Hai

If you would claim otherwise, please support your argument with documented factual information.

To refer to my previous analogy, if China set up an Islamic state in the western half of the US, and Americans in the east hadn't agreed to live in peace beside the new Islamic state, and any innocent Muslim civilians were being murdered, then I could see why the Muslim rulers might want to remove Americans from what remains of the US in the east.

But I was simply stating a fact. I'm not sure how you can disagree with it.

Do you deny that Israel is currently building settlements for Jews in the state of Palestine, and expelling Muslim and Christian families from their homes and the land they live on?

Or, is there some other country other than Israel, which is building settlements for it's civilians outside of it's borders, and expelling indigenous families from their homes and the land they live on? If so, which one?

I'm not saying comparative history doesn't mean a great deal. What I said was that it doesn't justify anything.

I'm not following your logic here. Do you not accept that Israel is building settlements for Jewish residents, outside Israel's internationally recognised borders, and in the state of Palestine, and expelling indigenous families from their homes and the land they live on?

 

Well like I said, it began when Zionist Jews began immigrating in significant numbers, with the intention of establishing control. I would be interested if you could cite any notable violent incidences which took place between Jews and Arabs prior to 1920.

Can you support any of this with anything other than your opinion?

As I have already demonstrated, the Jews in Palestine were on the same side as the British until after WW2, when Jews also turned on the British.

This is just nonsense. Jews lived relatively peacefully throughout the middle east, until after WW2. Jews were not expelled from Arab countries until after Israel expelled Arabs from their homes.

Can you name any of these battles in the middle east you would claim took place during WW2, which were intended to wipe out Jews? As far as I am aware, Jews continued to live peacefully throughout the middle east for the duration of the war, and were not expelled from any country until after Israel began expelling Palestinians from their homes.

In 1948, the Arab armies intervened in an attempt to prevent the slaughter and expulsions of Palestinians from their land and homes. While the most powerful of the Arab armies, the British commanded and supplied Arab Legion, did not attempt to invade any part of the UN designated Jewish state, but instead prevented Palestinians from being expelled from much of the Arab designated state, the British had initially allowed the coalition Arab Liberation Army to operate in Palestine before the British withdrawal, because the Palestinians were basically defenseless.

The only national Arab army which invaded Israel to any significant extent was Egypt, which was also supplied by and allied to the British at the time. This was when British forces were still stationed in Egypt. The RAF flew joint reconnaissance missions with the Egyptian airforce over Israel at the start of the war, and ended up defending Egypt from Israel by the end of the war.

It would be a mistake to try to paint the Arab armies as the aggressors in the 1948 war, as they were intervening on behalf of the Palestinians.

What borders are the Arabs supposed to recognise Israel existing within?

If my neighbour extended his garden fence onto my land, I certainly wouldn't recognise the existence of his land there.

The Arab states all told Israel that they would recognise it within it's internationally recognised borders years ago. It's Israel that doesn't want peace, not the Arabs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Israel wants to colonise as much land as possible for Jews to live on. That's what Zionism is all about.

But your argument doesn't have any basis in fact. If you disagree, then please post some supporting evidence.

Yet that is what is actually happening. Israel is colonising land and expelling a people that Jews have been at war with for over 75 years.

I'm not sure how you can rationally claim what is happening, isn't happening.

From an Arab perspective, it's been a fight against colonialism, just as all other indigenous populations have fought against those who have colonised their land throughout history. That some Jews initially bought a few small pieces of land in Palestine is nether here nor there. This is a colonial conflict, which just so happens to be between Jews and Arabs.

 

I will give it one more try before I retreat to my religious corner.
I have had this discussion too many times over the last 20 years to try and senselessly continue to try and point out what I consider "the obvious " - which is that for well over 100 years, the Arabs and Muslims have been engaged in horrific warfare against each other and, not incidentally, against Jews and Israel.
It baffles me why anyone would want to single out Jews or Zionists or Israelis as the progenitors of the particular conflict regarding Israel when all the tribes and countries of the Middle East and North Africa and the Muslim States all the way to India, have been hell bent on killing each other and establishing dominance of their particular faction for well over 100 years.
It is baffling to me why anyone would claim that, because the Arabs started massacring Jews in the 1920's, they were justified because they were angry that Jews wanted to establish their own State in the British Mandate.
When the Hashemites established their own State in the British Mandate, should the Arabs have started trying to murder the Hashemites? Oh. Wait... I guess the answer is yes as various Arab factions did murder the Hashemites and Arafat the Rotting's minions actually tried to wipe out the Jordanian Kingdom in 1970.
As did every other Arab faction try and wipe out other ruling factions for the last 100 years. Many, such as the Tribe of al-Saud, succeeded in a spectacular fashion after their conquests and slaughters in the Arabian peninsula and Mecca...

I am at a loss at to why you or anyone should believe that the conflict with Israel is any different from Arab / Muslim conflicts with each other and the rest of the world. "Israel" is just another "faction" which Arabs have glommed onto in their clan/ tribal/ "national" rivalries.
You keep on comparing Israel to other theoretical invasions regarding colonizing.
Why not compare Israel to real invasions regarding colonizing? We don't even have to go to China and Tibet or Russia and Asia - why not just stick to the Arab Muslim world in the exact same time frame that the Jews were emigrating to the Middle East and later establishing and maintaining Israel?
Why is the Jewish State of Israel any different from the Saudi Muslim State of Saudi Arabia, which was established by massacring those who refused to become part of their State; driving out those Arabs who refused to accept the new fanatic cult of Wahhabism; sacking and looting Mecca several times over the centuries as they tried to dominate the peninsula and finally, wiping out their own Ihkwan army of shock troops when those particular fanatics refused to give up Mecca to the corrup House of Saud?
Or the revolutions; massacres; and warfare in establishing Jordan; Syria; Egypt; Libya; Lebanon; Iran; Iraq; Algeria; Sudan; Afghanistan; Pakistan; even Turkey.
Each faction attempted to dominate every other faction by conquest and mass slaughter. And, these wars and persecutions have continued and do continue until this day - non stop.
The only difference between the "Israeli faction" and the rest of the Arab Muslim world is that, in this same period of time, Israel has managed to establish a multi cultural; multi ethnic; multi religious; technologically advance; relatively stable State while being attacked by one Arab Muslim faction or another.

It is incomprehensible to me why anyone would think that the Jews or Israel were responsible for the incessant, violent, vitriolic, nearly insane Arab Muslim grievances that have been ongoing for well over 100 years.

 

From my perspective, it has more to with our public policy choices and war on a for-profit basis than it may be about fellow human beings as the sole surviving species of the Homo genus.

 

Most Arabs are Muslims - so I'm not sure what warfare between Arabs and Muslims you are referring to, but as usual you don't support your claim.

The British and French drawing artificial borders, then installing puppet regimes with minority Sunnis in majority Shiite states etc, was bound to lead to a lot of fighting not just between between states, but also between leaders of states and their own populations. None of which has anything to do with Israel. The Iran/Iraq war, the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, and the Iranian revolution in 1979, to mention but a few examples, had nothing whatsoever to do with Israel.

Equally, Israel expelling Muslim and Christian families from their homes and the land they live on to make way for Jewish settlers, has nothing whatsoever to do with any of the examples I mentioned above.

See above. Israeli/Arab conflicts have nothing to do with other conflicts in the middle east.

I guess you would also be baffled if any Muslims were killed if a large number of Muslim immigrants wanted to set up their own Islamic state in the US....

Hashemites are Arabs.

Excepting when the PLO tried to take over, did Jordan expel Shia families from their homes to make way for Sunni settlers, or anything of the sort?

Of course they didn't.

That's why the Palestinians didn't make themselves known to the world when Jordan ruled the West Bank and Egypt ruled Gaza. Jordan didn't expel Palestinian families from their homes in the West Bank to make way for Jordanian settlers, nor did Egypt do so in Gaza to make way for Egyptian settlers.

It was only when Israel conquered the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, more and more Palestinian families began to be expelled from their homes and the land they live on - which as you know is a process that continues to this day in the West Bank.

In 1744?

Well like I keep telling you, it's because Israel expels Muslim and Christian families from their homes and the land they live on to make way for Jewish settlers.

Compare Israel colonising the West Bank to any other colonialism at any point in history if you want, but I don't see the point. Unless of course you can cite even one example which you think you can justify?

What the House of Saud did in 1744, or at any other point in history, does not justify what Israel is doing now.

The difference is that Israel not only continues to expel indigenous families from their homes and the land they live on to make way for it's own settlers, but it does so in a foreign country.

Imagine if Israel tried to do in the US what it does in Palestine, bearing in mind that many Americans are well armed and consider that they have a ''God-given'' or ''natural'' right to use guns to defend their land and homes. There would be absolute mayhem!

Individual citizens can't do much against a modern army, so it's only logical that they would organise themselves into factions, or even a ''well organised militia''...

From a legal point of view, Israel as the occupying power in Palestine has an obligation to withdraw, and the Palestinians have the right to resist the foreign military occupation, including by armed means.

When we hear about Israel ''defending itself,'' Israel ''defends itself'' in the same way that any foreign military power ''defends itself'' when it's occupying someone else's country.

The standard MSM image involves poor little Israel living in peril of it's evil Arab neighbours, and the settlements being for ''security reasons'' - although when people realise the civilian settlements are scattered throughout what would be enemy territory in the event of a war between Israel and Palestine - the ''security reasons'' facade falls apart. But the picture of poor little Israel living in peril is easier to maintain, because it is such an obviously tiny country compared to it's neighbours, and it takes a bit of research to discover that it's Israel's neighbours that live in peril of Israel, not the other way around.

But the spin you put on it is interesting. While you invoke the bit about Israel living in peril of it's neighbours, you put the blame on neighbouring countries and ''Muslims and Arabs'' fighting among themselves, as being the reason for the conflicts between them and Israel. This further deflects from the plight of the Palestinians, which is consistent with you ignoring the problems created by the settlements, and gets round the ''security reasons'' facade.

But thanks to the vast amount of information at our fingertips these days, more and more people around the world are discovering the facts, and your argument is of course completely unsupportable.

I hope for the sake of all parties involved, that Israel gets it's act together sooner rather than later. China is on course to become the dominant world power, and they repeatedly demonstrate respect for the sovereignty of other countries and promote upholding international law. While US policies in the middle east, which Israel is a part of, are violent in nature and promote instability, China's promotes stability. As China has not attacked any country outside of it's historical borders for over 2000 years, the odds are it's foreign policy is likely to remain peaceful in nature.

As US influence around the world declines, so too China's will spread. So it's reasonable to conclude that Israel will eventually face having to become a normal country, existing only within it's own borders and adhering to UN resolutions, since becoming a pariah state isn't really an option for a developed country. But if Israel is forced to act like a normal country, it would be the beginning of the end of Israel, as it wouldn't have a Jewish majority for long.

OTOH, I can't think of a peaceful solution that would ensure the long-term survival of Israel, but perhaps someone will come up with one.

 

Israel could become member of the European Union - for example. Or Isreal could ... in the moment I have three or four ideas but I'm sure there are much more ways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYbTNFN3NBo

 

... or the "Palestinians" could go back to Jordan, right?
Or, individual Palestinians could ask Israel to accept them back, those people who insist that they had legal title to property when they aided and supported the attack against Israel in the attempt to win their land from them.

The Jews would have been glad to co-exist beside those property owners back in 1967.
Maybe if they ask for the right to return to property they owned the Jews would find forgiveness and compensate them?

 

Why Jordan? And what if we would try to make out of some parts of a desert a green jungle and we would try to teach Palestinians to yodel as we learned to yodel from Tarzan once?

I don't know who "the Palestinans" are and who "the Jews" are you are speaking about. I remember what a lady here in our country once said: "You know everything about the mentality of the people of a country if you live six weeks there - but if you live 40 years in a country then you know only different human beings."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzTSamkLUVg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7rbBAiJ5dM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGKFOAeqxK8

 

1) Israel isn't in Europe

2) What problems would be solved by Israel joining the EU?

 

That's about as realistic as saying the ''Israelis'' could go back to Europe and wherever else they came from.

If Israel doesn't maintain a Jewish majority, there will be no more Israel.

Had Israel not expelled all these Muslim and Christian families from their homes and land in 1948, and refused to allow them to return, there wouldn't have been a Jewish majority in the first place.

 

So what? Who cares?

Solved? I guess we would get a lot of new problems - no idea wether we would be able to solve this problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3FkaN0HQgs

 

Well the EU is supposed to be for European countries.

So what would be the point of Israel joining the EU?

 

No point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygO1d0lMc9k

 

Is it wrong for a mostly nice guy to believe that the chics that are doing him the most are the most serious about a serious relationship in modern times?

 

LOL

Europe again "Judenrein"

In a few weeks Norway will be"Judenrein". The last 819 Jews still
living in Norway are now leaving the country due to the rise in
antisemitism.

Thus Norway becomes the first European country in which Jews will no
longer live.
A similar development can be observed in all the European countries.

The waves of Muslim immigrants bring antisemitism back to Europe. A
similar development is taking place in the neighboring country,
Sweden, and in all the European countries. The Muslims are the ones
who drive away the Jews everywhere. The information agency, Kopp
Exklusiv, is one of the few to talk about this subject.

It started in France. A day doesn't go by without Muslim attacks of
Jews. The press hardly reports it. There are too many incidents. In
the first five months of 2012, there were 268 attacks against Jews.
France today is an extremely antisemitic country. The socialist
Government under the leadership of Hollande does nothing to protect
the Jews - on the contrary. The numerous Muslims are a very important
part of the electorate for the elected officials and they are under
the auspices of the socialists. On July 5, 2012, a 17 years-old Jewish
youngster was nearly beaten to death near Toulouse by two Muslims of
North-African descent because he was wearing a chain with the Star of
David. The police were unable to collect evidence. The Jews are
publicly encouraged to leave the country.

The situation is not much different in Italy. Every Jew must fear for
his life and live under the protection of a security unit. The media
channels in Britain too, have been reporting for six years about the
emigration of Jews from Britain. In 1990 there were 340,000 Jews.
Today there are 240,000 left. The Muslim immigrants turn their life
into hell and chase them away. They have also succeeded in driving
away the Jews of Jewish Antwerp. In the Netherlands, former
politicians advised the Jews to leave the country soon. The former
European Commissioner, Frits Bolkestein, said that Dutchmen of
Moroccan descent are antisemitic and that it would be best if the Jews
left of their free will. They can immigrate to the United States (not
for long! -BL) or to Israel.

Dutch politicians from the Social Democratic circles marched together
with the Muslims who called for the construction of gas chambers in
order to burn the Jews. In the German-speaking countries this is not
reported in the press. The German journalists think that the Muslims
are decent people who have no connection whatsoever to the extreme
right . With this approach, journalists are helping to drive the Jews
away from Europe. They suppress the nightmare of the Islamic
immigration.
see it for yourself at
http://www.ask.com/web?q=Western+Eur...rc=0&o=0&l=dir

 

I - Origin and identity of the so-called Palestinians

Palestinians are the newest of all the peoples on the face of the Earth, and began to exist in a single day by a kind of supernatural phenomenon that is unique in the whole history of mankind, as it is witnessed by Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist that acknowledged the lie he was fighting for and the truth he was fighting against:


“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
“We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.

This declaration by a true "Palestinian" should have some significance for a sincerely neutral observer.

Indeed, there is no such a thing like a Palestinian people, or a Palestinian culture, or a Palestinian language, or a Palestinian history.
There has never been any Palestinian state, neither any Palestinian archaeological find nor coinage.
The present-day "Palestinians" are an Arab people, with Arab culture, Arabic language and Arab history.
They have their own Arab states from where they came into the Land of Israel about one century ago to contrast the Jewish immigration.
That is the historical truth.
They were Jordanians...



This research is intended to be completely neutral and objective, based on historic and archaeological evidences as well as other documents, including Arab sources, and quoting statements by authoritative Islamic personalities.

“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
“We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.

 

They are the Jordanians who received half of the British Protectorate in 1945.

“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
“We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.

- - - Updated - - -

They are the Jordanians who received half of the British Protectorate in 1945.

“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
“We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.

 

The region was known as Palestine during the Ottoman empire, and called Palestine during the British mandate. The people who lived there at the time were officially known as Palestinians.

It was the ''Israelis'' who became a people overnight, not the Palestinians.

 

The Israeli are the Jews whose genes verify that in recent tests, while the people who call themselves Palestinians are those Arabs who were supposed to live in Jordan, the second State which the British mandated.


"Jordanians" (another recent British invention, as there has never been any people known as "Jordanians"), and after the Six-Day War in which Israel utterly defeated the coalition of nine Arab states and took legitimate possession of Judea and Samaria, the Arab dwellers in those regions underwent a kind of anthropological miracle and discovered that they were Palestinians - something they did not know the day before. '

Of course, these people having a new identity had to build themselves a history, namely, had to steal some others' history, and the only way that the victims of the theft would not complain is if those victims do no longer exist.
Therefore, the Palestinian leaders claimed two contradictory lineages from ancient peoples that inhabited in the Land of Israel: the Canaanites and the Philistines.


http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm

 

No, ''Israelis'' are citizens of Israel, approximately 20% of whom are not Jewish.

 

The caption of this reads :

"Ask a Jew! What the Heck, why not....? "


so far it should be clear to any fair minded reader - if you " Ask a Jew" a direct question , dont expect an honest -direct - straightforward - reply . (wink)

 

Your view of what is "honest" is highly suspect Marlowe.
The rest of your adjectives are fluff. It is easier to denigrate those who disagree with your obsessions than to simply ask what it is that you do not understand.
However, your "honest" accusation is unfounded and is only the result of your own particular tunnel vision where, if things fall outside of the parameters of your preconceived prejudices, they therefore must be "dishonest."

Is there something you actually wanted to know about the religion of Judaism, Marlowe?

 

Moishe , for now - I'll leave it to others - the fair minded readers

As you've once confessed on this this thread - to ask a question from one Jew and you'd get two (or perhaps more opinions)

AFAI cant tell - the answer to any question to a Jews - depend on time of day- wind direction - mainly whatever a particular Jew think the Goy he's dealing with is ....stupid/gullible enough to believe him..

 

Is it wrong to call the Ten Commandments, part of the Law, Moses brought to the People?

 

Which is a problem for you.
Apparently, you do not find your statement either incredibly bigoted or oddly insulting.
One can only infer that you have had some kind of relationship with Jews that makes you feel inferior.
I don't know what that is but, I would suggest you try and get beyond it.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope.
The "Ten Commandments" are, indeed, part of the Torah given to the Jewish People.