"Atheism Produces Evil on Incredible Levels"

Prove your true free will. Tell us what you choose that God doesn't already know and have planned.
Can I assume your God is like the christian and jewish god? Omni everything?

If yes, then God already knows how the world will end, when it will end, how many will be in his eternal kingdom, even who is in his eternal kingdom. This is already known. Has to be a yes answer.
Are you capable of changing that which he already knows about who will be in his kingdom.

 

But I'm not talking about "abstract ideas." I'm referring to a perfect being, otherwise known as God. If God isn't perfect, then He isn't God. I'm using the text-book definition of perfection to describe God in a general sense.

1. The free will is still there. The individual just as to understand that both lawful and unlawful (and everything in between) actions will be answered to in the end. You do what you want, and get what you deserve. Perfect justice.

2. You said, "Punish them severely." Since God is most just, I'm sure He will deal accordingly with everyone.

 

So what if I can't?

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Why does it have to be inhabited to be perfect?

 

if you can't do something your god isn't expecting, you have no free will, only the appearance of free will. why is this so hard to understand? or is it easy to understand, but unpalatable, so theists pretend they don't understand?

 

We are nevertheless responsible for our actions.

 

You figure it out. It's not rocket science. You can't change anything.

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Actions that were pre given to us. Actions you cant change from any different. Your fate was sealed before you were born.

 

In my opinion, a perfect world is one that I can experience to the fullest, which would require being able to survive in every environment present. Do you see now how subjective the concept of "perfection" is?

 

I don't yet understand your point of view, but this hits me as weak.

The existence of places where human survival isn't possible adds to our experience.

Our universe can't be considered imperfect simply for the fact that we are so totally trapped on earth.

 

Fear and guilt. That's all you've got.

 

You really do not get atheists do ya, they do not believe in God, Any God, hence they do not fear what they do not believe in.

 

I see no value in that concept. It can't be proven. And, I see no way for that idea to motivate any kind of improvement in our condition.

It hits me as no more than the perfect excuse for immorality - "I had no choice. It was preordained that I do that."

And, if you believe in God, one would have to wonder why our existence on earth is important in any way. If it's already determined which souls will burn and which will float to heaven, this idea of yours simply removes the only religious excuse for this universe in the first place.


The only logical way to face this idea of yours is to assume it is false.

 

If we propose that atheism produces evil..... What does that mean?
Absence of belief produces evil
So somehow if you do believe in god there is reduced evil behavior
Apparently belief in any god is adequate for the purpose?
Possibly because there is the idea of some transcendent meaning in life beyond human desires.

Fwiw...
The nuclear standoff of the cold war was predicated on mutually assured destruction
Which in theory meant that we were fully prepared to obliterate people on a massive basis

 

I didn't make God omniscient. The religion did it. I am merely explaining what that idea means.
Most christians and it seems muslims say God has planned everything, some say he controls everything. Even the flooding and drought in Texas.

 

I know there are some questions here where humans don't agree.

The point I care about is that thinking of ourselves as having no choice is to be avoided.

It's certainly logical that an omniscient god would know what choices we will make, but that is because he is present in the future when we have already made those choices. It doesn't mean we had no choice. It just means he knows what our choice was (will be?). I guess that still leaves us wondering why He bothered to run the experiment, but that's a different issue.

Muslims do believe that it makes a difference what we do - that we need to be making good choices.

In fact, Christians are less focused on "works" (what we do) than are Muslims when it comes to final reward. The new testament states "by grace are ye saved, not by works lest any man should boast" - which is usually interpreted to mean that the critical juncture is recognizing and accepting that "grace", and that attempts to be a better, more deserving human are good to do, but ultimately pretty much irrelevant to salvation. On the other hand, Muslims see personal recognition of the state of man and man's relationship to god as only the start that must be followed by strong and reasonably successful changes in oneself that require structure and dedication (for example multiple daily prayers) - the internal jihad.

That is far from having no choice. It means constant dedication to making good choices that matter.

 

My point is that perfection is subjective, what is perfect for you may not be perfect for me. So to define God as absolute perfection is meaningless.

 

Not that it matters, but i doubt one could find fault with true perfection.

 

If God is omniscient, I don't know what difference it makes if he is in the here and now and the future. If the future is known, and can never be changed then free will is only an illusion to those in the present.
Grace saving is RC, I never was so I'm not up on how one receives grace. I thought grace through faith and works, not sure.
I was/am LCMS, Lutheran are saved by faith alone. Jeffery Dahmer supposedly repented in prison before he was killed and is believed based on that to have been saved.

 

I don't believe the future has been cast in concrete - that is, no free will. It's more like the future has already been seen. When I make a decision tonight, it will be totally my choice, but it won't be a surprise to God who exists at the end of time as well as now. But, that doesn't mean that I had no free will - just that he exists during all times.

I think all protestants are saved by grace, too. That is, it was God's grace that he sacrificed his son, providing a solution to mankind's natural state of sinfulness, and accepting that is the key. I believe I quoted the KJV correctly in using the term "grace" - I don't think that is a point of contention between Christian denominations. The RC has purgatory and other strange stuff, but if you ask a priest what you need to do to be saved, I think the root will be acceptance of Jesus as your savior - pretty much like what you would get from your pastor.

I'd be really interested in anyone letting me know if that's not correct.

 

Perfection, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

That might make sense if time actually existed, and wasn't just how we perceive change around us. There is still a problem with information about your choices existing before you make them.

 

Then that would mean, the omniscient, omnipotent, has multiple endings and the true ending isn't known. Kind of blows omniscient away. For if one can see the future, even you, and have no control on the future outcome, all things leading to that point have to be followed. Just like a script in a play where no ad lib could be possible. Everything in that play must occur as written and each scene is exact as viewed by the creator.
The only difference here, is we have not pre-rehearsed the lines. To the actors, they are doing the play from scratch, without rehearsal and prior knowledge of the outcome.
That is if God is omniscient as many believe.

 

This seems to me to be one of the basic problems of the proposition that there is a God that has these properties - especially of existing at all times at once.

I think one significant point is that the information about those choices isn't available to us - it remains outside our system where it can't affect our choices.

 

So God cannot share any information about our future choices with us? Sort of contradicts many parts of the Bible, doesn't it?

 

OK. I don't see it that way.

I think it has to be that God is there RIGHT NOW at the end as well as at all other points in time. He knows the actual ending, because he is there.

BUT, that information isn't available to us earthly beings. It is outside our system. So, we are still completely free to do whatever we choose - it's just that God knows (but doesn't specify) what we will choose.

If you see God as timeless and as limited to observation only, then it falls out pretty easily that we have full range of choice.

From there, one can add in cases where God interacted (or interacts) with humans. But, most Christians would tend to see that as humans choosing to listen to God - still their choice.


Of course, I have a more direct answer to this - one that recognizes that there is no god. But, even if there were a god, it doesn't mean we lose choice. The choices we make still matter.

 

Of course, I see it different. We are following the script, and we can not change the script.
Who say's it's their voice? A few claim to have God speaking to them via God itself of it's messenger the Holy Spirit.

Even if there is not God, our choice are still a product of our personalities, teachings, environments, etc. There's a hole host of things that affect our subconscious that our conscious has no clue about.
It is very difficult to change from one's nature.