"Atheism Produces Evil on Incredible Levels"

Evidence that it hasn't been corrupted ever since its inception? Do you have evidence of the contrary?

Not an opinion, but a belief. You have the preconcieved notion that scientific evidence is required when it comes to proving anything that concerns God. Why should we go by your rules?

But there is no evidence that the Qur'an has been corrupted. It is the exact same text that the Prophet revealed over a millennium ago.

But we are talking about the greatest piece of Arabic literature and poetry ever conceived. It is not possible an illiterate layman can produce something like it.

I don't know what you mean by "stories."

 

I'm sure you came to your wise conclusion after an intense study of both texts.

 

The inability to prove the negitive is not proof of the positive. The burden of proof is upon those who make the initial claim, in this case that the Quran is the word of God.

A better question is why should anyone go by your rules when you cannot provide evidence that your claims are based in fact? If God were to make Himself known then there would be no need for scientific proof of nebulous claims.

Perhaps what was written was not the truth thus the fact that the text has not changed becomes a moot point. History is ripe with supernatural claims made in old tomes. Why is one fantastical claim anymore valid than another? You can no more prove that your God is God anymore than any other religion. Religion is about faith, not empirical fact. I believe in God but am perplexed by my fellow theists need to prove it to others. How does one prove the unprovable?

Why is it not possible?

Stories are not synonomous with truth or fallacy as they can be one, the other, or an amalgam of both. I believe that the Quran is an amalgam of fact and fiction as the fantastical claims cannot be empirically proven to have actually happened.

 

Having trouble understanding what atheism is?

 

I think our friend is labouring under the misapprehension that even though we don't believe in gods, we believe in gods

 

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=407082&p=1064992309#post1064992309

The evidence you ignored.

 

How can I give you evidence that it hasn't been corrupted? I can't prove a negative.

In any event, it is the same very text that was revealed by the Prophet. Do you have any arguments that may disprove this position?

You have to go by my rules because these are God's rules. It is the heart that ultimately accepts God, so any physical evidence will never satisfy.

Is God not the Truth?

The problem here is that you see Islam as just "another religion" with its own version of God. Islam literally means the submission to the One God, and the Qur’an is the perfect encapsulation Him.

The same way it is not possible for your average Joe to wake up one morning and start composing verses that rival the text of Shakespeare. Let's not forget the scientific information that a desert-dweller could not have known.

Claims like what?

 

I don't know what this is supposed to mean.

 

Um, I don't know what to say.
Do you remember things in exact detail 20 yrs later?
Especially a whole book of information?

 

There are millions of people today who have memorized the Qur'an. It is a memorizable text.

 

yeah except they didn't have any text until 100 years after his death, how can you memorize something without text meanwhile knowing how to write and not write it down, or the fact that mohammaed invaded countries of very literate people who have no recollecton of his existence, if a man in a flying horse came down from the sky and destroyed my entire kingdom i might write that down before I write down the price of olives

 

My inability to prove the claims made in the Quran as false is not proof that the claims made in the Quran are true.

Says you, but I do not see you as an authority on the subject nor have you shown any evidence that would sway me to believe as you do.

Truth is a subjective state of mind. The truth is that green is my favorite color does not make it your truth or the truth of all. Truth is an honest statement that is not synonymous with fact.

No, the problem here is that Islam makes unfalsifiable claims thus making one have to believe without empirical evidence.

Thus it may be all made up. For me to believe as you do you will need to prove that the stories are true... which is impossible as they are not provable or falsifiable thus must be taken on faith.

The the ascension of prophet Muhammad. How can this be empirically proven?

 

Like I said, the Arabs were an oral people. Before lslam, all they had was their poetry. They were thus adept at memorizing long lines of verbal text.

More so, the companions of the Prophet did indeed write it down. They however transcribed the recitations on things like stones, bark, and pieces of parchment.

 

OK, but what does this have to do with the assertion that the Qur'an is not a corrupt text?

Let's see, do you believe God can be proved by science?

The existence of God necessitates that only He can be the Truth.

What kind of unfalsifiable claims?

Stories? The Qur'an is God's final and complete message to mankind. He is the narrator, front to end.

And how is it made up? Don't you believe in one God?

It can’t; so what?

 

That would be because Islam is just another religion, with just one version of just one god. Of the thousands upon thousands of different versions of different gods. It's only 'true', and only 'one god', to the individual. It has no meaning or weight beyond your own nose.

 

Nome of the pagan gods that have been invented by humans are like God. God trumps all those pagan inventions. Why? Because there is no god but God. His perfect qualities, traits and divine acts (all which are revealed in the Qur'an) make Him unlike any pagan god- or anything for that matter.

God is not a version, the same way Blue (as a concept) is not a version. Humans can't invent the perfect blue, now can they?

 

I'm sorry, Goombs, but that was about the equivalent of saying "none of the other gods are as goddy as god" It's utterly nonsensical, and provides nothing in the way of information as to why one god ought to be considered differently than all the others (and all the other versions of all the others). Even if you arrange the words differently, it lends nothing at all to the weight of this particular god. No matter what claims are made to uniqueness (and many claim uniqueness), they're just words. And you acknowledge this by your own rejection of all other claims to uniqueness.

As regards 'varieties of blue', well yes, there are many. Furthermore, the versions (varieties) of your own faith are many, as are versions of the other Abrahamic faiths. Who has the 'true blue'?

 

It means that the positive nor the negative can be empirically proven. Perhaps the Qur'an is corrupted and perhaps it is not... but I have seen no empirical proof that would compel me to believe either way.

Possible, but improbable.

That is circular logic that I reject as it cannot be proven to be fact. Its akin to a child asking a mother "but why mom" and the mom saying "because I said!" Through the use of circular logic anything can be justified.

The ascension of prophet Muhammad.

Says what... the Qur'an? Again circular logic.

Yes.

If the ascension of prophet Muhammad cannot be proven then why do you so passionately argue that the Qur'an is the word of God? My point being that religion is about faith not fact. You have faith that the Qur'an is correct and I respect that, but what you cannot do is prove to me that it is correct which is why I reject Islam and all other religions. If and when I see empirical proof that a religion truly represents God will be the day I join that religion... but I am not getting my hopes up as how does one prove the existence of a theological intangible? Aside from God popping in on me right now saying "dude, (fill in the blank) ________ is the true religion"... I keep an open mind but remain unaffiliated with any organized religion.

 

Pagan gods are unlike the monotheistic God. Gods like Thor were not seen in the same light as God is today. When philosophers debate God, they are not referring to the existence of Zeues or Ra. They are referring to the monotheistic God who created the universe.

The argument that God is just another human invention (like all the others gods) is nonsensical. We are not even on the same playing field, because I don’t see God as a paganistic creation.

1. Yes, there are versions of blue, but Blue as a concept in our minds is one thing, and the attempts to recreate this concept in the physical realm is another. There is no shade of blue on this earth that can be considered the true Blue. In the same vein, there is no god but God.

2. Who has the true God? A number of them do, but as I said, the perfect encapsulation of Him is found in the Qur'an.

 

you just said it yourself 'a human invention - like all the other gods'. if every theist says the same thing about their god/s, and about their holy book/s, who can say another is wrong or right? No one, obviously. It can only ever be personal to an individual. again, you yourself acknowledge all (other) gods are man made. Those gods have adherents who say the same - ergo there is only one god FOR YOU, and only one god for THEM. Your god has no relevance to them, just as theirs have no relevance to you.

 

What they do have in common is that they are both fictional. Any claim that God is real is as arbitrary as the claim that Thor is real.

 

He/it was a Jewish/Hebrew creation. The arabs took it an ran with it.

 

No, pagans can't possibly believe that their god is the true God, because they have multiple gods to begin with. I'm making the claim that their is no god but God.

 

Only in your world.