Atheists, Agnostics and valid responses to twisted bible bashers.

More so than on any other forum devoted to religion and philosophy I find this one infested with blind true believers who cannot engage in anything like intelligent discussion. They ignore recent biblical studies, throw chapter and verse around like confetti and demonstrate a degree of madness so blatantly obvious it's sad.
Too many times I've found myself unable to ignore these true believers at times lashing out telling them they're mad which achieves nothing. Apart from putting these sad folk on an ignore list has anyone yet found another process for interacting with them that's not totally frustrating and pointless?

 

There probably isn't any other way to interact with them.. They believe the Bible is history, science and inerrant.

Questioning scripture is forbidden in their minds.. Archeologists, geologists, linguists, historians etc are heretics.

 

Now that is funny. I observe mostly the opposite. Sure, there are plenty of 'true believers' who cling to their beliefs, but it is NO DIFFERENT in the 'atheist & agnostic' camp. IMO, there is a LOT more hostility & intolerance from the anti religious camp, who stick to their groupthink with jihadist zeal.

I have started many threads with attempts at LOGICAL & SCIENTIFIC examination of things, both philosophical & empirical. Occasionally, there will be a bible thumper who will dogmatically declare their beliefs as absolute, but mostly, it is the irreligious who are the most hysterical, illogical, & intolerant of diverse opinions.

Yours (and mine) are, of course, subjective opinions ABOUT this phenomena, & we have no empirical studies or statistics to support either 'theory'. Funny you would start a thread about this, with a dogmatic declaration of Truth about your opinion...

 

It is futile, for you are dealing with what some humans find psychological security in. Man has always, generally speaking, wanted to see his personality continue, his self, what he feels to be the "I" beyond the grave. And most people fear death, for it is the unknown, and it might be an end to this "I". And so they invent ideas, write them down, attribute those idea to the gods, and then believe in these ideas. And as people are born and grow up, they are either conditioned to these ideas, by whatever religion their parents are, or they, in seeking psychological security for their own egos, embrace what some ancient books says, and starts to believe that what these books say is the truth.

Given this, given the fact of the matter of what creates these gods, the afterlife, etc, how could you ever expect to carry on an argument in regards to their beliefs? Their psychological security relies upon believing what they do. So, it's futile, and its a waste of time to engage them. In real life, fear, is stronger than reason, logic, rationality. In real life, the demand for security is greater than a rational argument. Accept this as fact, and with that comes an understanding, and you will not waste your time. Unless of course you enjoy trying to change someone's mind, who is clinging like hell to their security blanket. You will not wrestle that from their strong grip. So, give it up.

 

The genuine agnostic, is different from the atheist, or the theist. And this difference then determines the entire mindset, of the agnostic. The theist, or the atheist, is making a claim, that they KNOW that either god does exist or he does not exist. And in doing so, they serve up the impossible task of proving that what they believe is true. But not the agnostic. The genuine agnostic simply says, " I do not know". And this state of not knowing is entirely different from the state of claiming that, ' I know". And that difference is a tremendous difference indeed. First of all, it is a stance that is grounded in total intellectual honesty and integrity. Second, there is no arrogance at all in claiming I do not know. In fact, its a very humble mindset, and not at all like the arrogance of the atheist or the theist, who claim that indeed they do know. When in fact, they in reality, do not know it at all. They just make a claim that they know, thereby, basically not only being arrogant, but a liar, if not a damned liar. And so an agnostic is a much easier chap to get along with, to have fun with, to spend time with. Humility in human relationships is a very positive attribute, which is so hard to find among the theists and the atheists.

 

I am an agnostic atheist. I am also a materialist who demands evidence to support my beliefs. Since there is no definitive evidence for or against the existence of any God(s), I elect to not believe in them in the absence of such evidence.

OTOH, belief in the inerrant nature of metal age scriptures, to my way of thinking at least, is an absurd rejection of our advancing human knowledge. I also reject out of hand, the circular nature of theist arguments based on those scriptures. I respect every individual's right to believe whatever the hell they want to, but that respect does not necessarily extend to the substance of those beliefs. Hence my oft times sarcastic and derogatory responses when confronted with what I believe to be beliefs detrimental to the advancement of our collective knowledge and social maturation.

 

Yes. If I treat them with honest respect, refrain from making judgements such as calling them "sad" or "blind" and insult their intellectual and logical capacity, as well as their sanity, I have found that they, just as anyone else, often are quite forthcoming and interesting. In fact, those who I agree with to the extent that I throw politeness to the wind tend to make more frustrating debaters.

The possible exception is people who do not respond to certain questions, but for that, the ignore list isn't really a solution.

 

I find this a very close minded approach. Personally I joined this forum to meet and read views opposite of my own, and I was always interested in the reasoning.

What would be the point of a political forum and these topics if you cannot exchange ideas and ignore those who disagree with your view?

I don't understand the point.

 

My Plan has been to assume everyone here who is posting has a decidedly different view than myself, or even the other posters.

They have no intention of admitting to any errors.

It is their intention to defend with their last drop of blood anything that they have said or will say.
Their mind is not only made up, but sealed by what they believe is God, himself.
In their opinion, God has already either told them what they know or approved of it indirectly, if not by a personal relationship of some sort.
They would suffer martyrdom before admitting they are wrong.

The supposed Atheists are either Gays defending their coming out in public as they attack their major enemy in America, Christianity.
Or, they are Feminists, many already on Welfare themselves, or they are relatives and friends who support sexual promiscuity as fun thing that hurts no one.
Their minds and money are are also made up.

Then we have the real nice intelligent open minded people, like you, who read all this and learn stuff.
That is who I try to educate about what I have discovered.
Some learn.
Some don't.

 

Yes,... they believe god revealed all this to them.

Then are people like you, who deny everything about the Bible immediately.
You demand proofs for everything and them attack the proof, sure no proof exists.
And it doesn't.
There is just evidence to support ideas.

You too are sure "Archeologists, geologists, linguists, historians" are right about not only there subjects, but the evidence you use to confront Bible people,... except me.
Me, you argue against the science, the history, the geology, etc, because I use it to support what I read in scripture.

 

You have the agnostic part right, but atheists also make no claim of knowledge. Atheism is not a claim of certain knowledge that gods don't exist, only the lack of belief that they do. It is the rejection of supernatural claims made by theists, nothing more.

 

I will respectfull debate anyone on anything in the bible you would like to claim as false. In fact I have an open challenge to anyone to provide me with evidence that shows any contradictions or errors in the bible and I have defended that claim numerous times without fail.

But do not take my word for it, bring up something you have a problem with and test me if you want to back up your claim.

 

...but these atheists do not deny that Reality exists.

Reality is a force and power that rules over us and all species.
Reality is the god of the living creature, too.
Because, if we disobey Reality long enough, we become extinct from him, and do not exist as a species anymore.
We know the sanity of living inside Reality.
We know we must adapt to Reality, because Reality is our master.

Atheists do not count Reality in their denials of other gods.
But, in every sense, Reality is God.... and his son is the Truth which images him for us.

 

Then you believe that Gen 1:9,10 describes what we now call the Pangaea type of tectonic plate movements that created one land mass, surrounded by all the waters under heaven?

 

Hmmm,...
Its partly culture though.
We see few Muslims suddenly becoming Jewish or Christian.
And few Christians turn muslim.

What we see is similar to the idea of Nationalism.
People are born in Mexico, and even when they come to America forever, they remember Mexico, and think warmly of their old nation.
That is why we have Italian-Americans and Afro-Americans, and German-Americans, etc.
We are raised by our parents to think territoriality.

 

But one state of Insanity is called Cognitive Dissonance.
It means we don't know it is true, yet we believe it is true.
Our Knowledge conflicts with our ability to believe when we say we don't know.

I personally believe that agnostics are just cowards who don't believe or know.

 

Yes, you are a coward who knows there is no God, so you admit to atheism.
But since you know there is a chance you could be wrong, you have the excuse ready for Gabriel who you will tell it wasn't clear enough for you to believe in a god.

But, if I a right behind you, I will tell Gabriel that you deny that Reality is your master, and have refused to live in it, as you question whether the Truth actually describes it.
You see no reason to tell others that they need face Reality, and stop hurting little kids with families that have no father.

 

It could be interpreted many ways. There is no way to explain what happened from only a few sentences.

 

We have direct tangible experience and proof reality exists, otherwise we wouldn't experience it. Science is also the only tool we have to explore it reliably through study of reality, creating hypothesis and testing them and trying to prove them false and then determining if that holds up until disproven. Faith doesn't have that and applying faith only in the religious and deistic application of that word isn't and is a knowledge claim when used.

 

Religion is for the weak minded and cowards.

 

Just because people don't agree with your views, you resort to insult, personal attacks, demeaning, persecute. And self-claim intelligent.

 

The problem with religion is that it tries to answer all the questions instead of just the ones that cannot be answered by science or empiricism. The religions that stick to morality and personal development have a stronger case to make than those that encompass a creation story or insist that man is a creature of a God. Because so many of these religions began in a time of total ignorance about the world and in absolute poverty, misery and illiteracy, they retain vestiges of this barbaric age and insist upon keeping those vestiges alive despite centuries of human achievement and enlightenment refuting all of it. Let us say that a first cause event was started by an uncaused being. Their is no evidence for this being today, no one sees this thing or it, it has not shown up on TV or in history at all. It simply is. That is the truth of the matter, there is no refutation possible for this fact. So we have a thing/God that can only be asserted through a lack of knowledge who also carries the burden of being the same thing/God that gives us moral guidance and/or judgement. Where did this come from but ignorance and fear of the unknown? It could be that a God exists, but it could also be that thousands of Gods exist or billions of them, the evidence for one God is the same as many Gods. Given what we know about the world today, does this God need to exist for us to explain the universe and ourselves? Not really. But this God may have value in giving meaning to people's lives and perhaps a moral foundation upon which to understand being a human being. But we do not need a God to do this, each of us is capable of it ourselves. After all, we once were a tabula rosa were we not? Think about what is and what ought to be. First we must accept what is, we cannot argue facts, they simply exist separate from our perceptions about them. Once we know what "is", we can then think about what we "ought" to do about it. What we "ought" to do about it is the domain of philosophy, free thinking, compassion, empathy, love and experience that leads us to a better future. Religion might be part of that discussion but it is not the only option to us.

 

Religion can be for the week minded and cowards, it can also provide comfort ( even if a form of delusion) for those in crisis.
However, over the ages far too many highly intelligent and determined individuals have used religion to gain wealth, power and as a cover for committing obscene acts of abuse against others, often youth.
"The sleep of the labouring man is sweet, whether he eat little of much: but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep"
Ecclesiastes Ch:5.V:12.

 

In short, no. Said individuals are not here for debate. They have no inclination for critical reflection in any introspective, or rational, manner.

 

It's the desperate, one could say pathological, need for absolute certainty that has them building walls of convoluted apologetics around their belief system that's impenetrable. Why however they have no interest in getting closer to what Jesus actually taught will forever puzzle me. I can almost understand that kind of blindness if the Roman church gets hold of them from an early age but others have more opportunity to think for themselves yet don't.