Atheists Who Celebrate All The Good That God Causes.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JAG*, May 25, 2020.

  1. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,405
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If I remember rightly atheists-who-celebrate-all-the-good-that-god-causes. ,you claim God exists it's up to you to prove it.
     
  2. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    8,776
    Likes Received:
    4,065
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I can prove God does not exist to the same standard that I can prove anything does not exist. Faeries, Aliens sitting invisible beside me in my living room, etc. I can't prove any of those don't exist. That doesn't mean I can't dismiss them as fantasy. The inability to prove a negative to 100% certainty is not grounds to believe in anything.I also may be a dolphin dreaming. Maybe I am a computer program and so are all the others and you are the only human posting on this forum.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  3. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    8,776
    Likes Received:
    4,065
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is another problem with this. 11 doesn't follow necessarily from 10.

    Not if you believe in the concept of free will. Hospitals and the Red Cross are created by humans and therefor if free will exists then God is not responsible for them any more than your mother is responsible for your poetry.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  4. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Trevor,
    Consider the following:

    There are elements within Biblical Christianity that you are not considering.

    {1} The Lord Jesus said that no man could come to him unless the Father
    draws him to Jesus.

    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and
    I will raise them up at the last day."___The Lord Jesus in John 6:44


    {2} The Lord Jesus said that all that the Father gives Him, will come to Him.

    "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to
    me I will never drive away."___The Lord Jesus John 6:37


    {3} The Lord Jesus said that all His sheep would listen to His voice and would
    follow Him and that He would give them Eternal Life and that they
    "shall never perish."

    "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give
    them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them
    out of my hand."__The Lord Jesus John 10:27-28


    ___________

    So?

    So the New Testament calls upon each individual to repent of their sins and
    cry out to God for His Mercy and Grace. You do not know if you are one of
    those mentioned in {1}, {2}, and {3} ---- or if you are NOT one of those.

    Here is where you will be tested.
    You have two choices

    {A} You can intellectually pick 1, 2, and 3 to pieces and use 1, 2, and 3, as "just
    more evidence" that proves Christianity should be rejected.

    or

    {B} You can humbly bow to the Sovereignty of the God that created you and cry
    out for His Mercy and Grace and refuse to "set yourself up" as being qualified
    to "sit in judgment" on Almighty God.


    If you choose {A} then you give evidence that you are NOT to be included in
    1, 2, and 3 up there and, if you continue to remain with {A} you will
    experience the "perish" of John 3:16

    _________

    You can choose right now.

    If you are reading this, you are probably sitting at your computer.
    You have a choice. Right now.
    You can choose to humble yourself and pray to God for His Mercy
    and Grace and ask for His forgiveness and for His salvation
    offered to you in Christ --- or you can choose to look at 1,2, and 3
    up there as "just more evidence" NOT to humble yourself before
    God and NOT to believe in the truth of Christianity.

    _________


    The New Testament offers salvation to everyone.

    "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."___Romans 10:13


    __________

    {B} You can humbly bow to the Sovereignty of the God that created you and cry
    out for His Mercy and Grace and refuse to "set yourself up" as being qualified
    to "sit in judgment" on Almighty God.

    I believe you would be very glad and happy if you chose {B}.

    Best.

    JAG

    _______


    PS
    Intellectualism, Empiricism, Rationalism, Logic, Secularism are not
    your friends, they are the enemies of your soul and will be of no
    comfort to you in your certain-coming "hour of need."


    ``
     
  5. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,405
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Can you prove that Jesus said any of those things. I don't think for one moment that Jesus was Gods only Son as Christians claim. Every Jew is A son of God according to the OT. For Jesus to claim he was THE Son of God would not have gone down at all well with his disciples. Hear O' Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One. This was the Jewish belief that every Jew had been brought up with.

    The Gospels were written long after Jesus death. They had a reason for making Jesus God's Son. When Jesus claimed God (Jahweh) was his father he was simply accepting the belief of every Jew. If you know Judaism and the OT as Jesus and his disciples did they found nothing unusual in accepting Jahweh was their father. We are told that on the cross Jesus quoted David Psalm 22. There is no reference to a father/son relationship - just אֵלִי אֵלִי, לָמָה עֲזַבְתָּנִי; My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me.

    You simply accept everything at face value without question. That's the way Islam started, the way Jehovah Witnesses came into being, the Mormons. Get one person to believe and spread that belief. Again I say. If you look into the way the Bible came into being, Judaism and its influence on Christianity, the influence of Greek philosophy in Pauls teaching you might be able to understand. But you deny facts that most Christians accept. You really know little apart from what you want to believe. For all your undoubted intelligence a child could tear your Bible knowledge to pieces.

    I suggest a little Alexander Pope

    A Little Learning
    by Alexander Pope



    A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
    Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
    There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    And drinking largely sobers us again.
    ................
     
  6. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Its never to late to return to faith in God.

    We both rely on Faith.
    You have no 2 + 2 =4 level of certainty regarding your beliefs.
    You rely on Probability and Plausibility just like everybody else does.
    You don't KNOW there is not a God.
    You don't KNOW that your "facts" are actually true.
    You can be wrong.
    Many experts have been wrong.
    If you google "science proven wrong" you'll pull up a lot of examples
    of the "smart ones" getting it totally wrong.
    And Big Time wrong too.

    I do not threaten.
    I am a mere man.
    I am a sinner saved by God's Mercy and Grace.
    I merely tell you what the Bible says.
    John 3:16 presents you with 2 choices:
    {1} believe and get Eternal Life
    {2} refuse to believe and "perish"

    By the way, I am no more preaching to you.
    Than you are preaching to me.
    I preach my values to you.
    You preach your values to me.

    They are not facts.
    They are your personal conclusions that you have drawn from
    your studies and that is all they are.
    They undermine the credibility of God's word the Bible and this was
    the motive of the people that wrote the books you read.

    Christendom has Christian scholars that have refuted your "facts"
    or presented highly Plausible alternative explanations. You do not
    read these. You discount these, Because they contradict what
    you have chosen to believe.

    By the way , , ,
    What is atheism?

    At bottom atheism is the personal decision to keep the God that
    created them OUT of their lives.
    Atheism is humans telling God to "get away from me, I want no
    part of you, I do not want YOU God, telling me how to live my life,"
    Atheists want to be, and are, their own god.
    Here is atheism in a nutshell. I am my own god.

    No.
    Not odd.
    There are other explanations for all that stuff.

    I don't do that.
    You love to learn stuff.
    Don't you love to learn new stuff?
    Why don't you broaden your horizons?
    You ever heard of N.T. Wright?
    You even hear of his book titled
    "The Resurrection Of The Son Of God."
    It is a masterpiece of historical research.
    It is praised far and wide.
    Why don't you read it.
    Here is a review:
    https://jimhamilton.info/2013/05/28...the,titled The Resurrection of the Son of God.

    Here is an excerpt:

    "Observing that historical evidence is rarely sufficient to establish a conclusion
    absolutely and certainly on historical grounds, Wright helpfully describes a
    “scale from . . . ‘extremely unlikely,’ through ‘possible,’ ‘plausible,’ and
    ‘probable,’ to ‘highly probable’” (p. 687 n. 3). Every orthodox Christian
    will be heartened by his conclusion that “the historian, of whatever
    persuasion, has no option but to affirm both the empty tomb and the
    ‘meetings’ with Jesus as ‘ historical events’” (p. 709)
    . The bishop in
    the troubled Anglican church then states with the boldness that
    strengthens faith, “I regard this conclusion as coming in the same
    sort of category, of historical probability so high as to be virtually
    certain, as the death of Augustus in AD 14 or the fall of Jerusalem
    in AD 70” (p. 710)
    . Coming from one of the most prolific and influential
    NT scholars of our day—at a time when scholarship cares not for
    faithfulness but for novelty—a forthright affirmation of the resurrection
    is like the blast of a shofar on the battlefield."
    https://jimhamilton.info/2013/05/28...the,titled The Resurrection of the Son of God.
    ___________

    Read books like that one up there.
    You're an honest seeker of truth.
    Go for the truth.
    Get both sides.
    Not just one side.
    At least read the review.
    It is short and to the point.

    Best,

    JAG
     
  7. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    No.
    You can't prove He did not say those things.
    Christianity is a Faith.

    __________________

    Here below is where you made your choice:

    JAG Previously Wrote:
    Here is where you will be tested.
    You have two choices

    {A} You can intellectually pick 1, 2, and 3 to pieces and use 1, 2, and 3, as "just
    more evidence" that proves Christianity should be rejected.

    or

    {B} You can humbly bow to the Sovereignty of the God that created you and cry
    out for His Mercy and Grace and refuse to "set yourself up" as being qualified
    to "sit in judgment" on Almighty God.


    If you choose {A} then you give evidence that you are NOT to be included in
    1, 2, and 3 up there and, if you continue to remain with {A} you will
    experience the "perish" of John 3:16
    ______

    To bad.
    Very sad.
    You chose {A}

    The Lord Jesus said "Have faith in God" in Mark 11:22
    So I will.
    I will have Faith in God.
    I am not above the Almighty.
    Neither are you.

    The Lord Jesus said that unless we become like little children
    we would never enter the Kingdom Of Heaven.
    It is not necessarily the person with the high IQ that pleases God.
    It is not the Intellect that is the path to peace with God, it is rather
    the heart that is the pathway to peace with God.
    Romans 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace
    with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."


    This below is much better for your soul than is Alexander Pope.

    "Intellectualism, Empiricism, Rationalism, Logic, Secularism are not
    your friends, they are the enemies of your soul and will be of no
    comfort to you in your certain-coming "hour of need."___JAG


    Best.

    JAG

    ``
     
  8. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I will do my best to answer any theological or philosophical
    question you put to me.

    Best

    JAG

    PS
    Did you see my The Violinist Thought Experiment?
    {up-thread}

    ``
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  9. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    @Swensson
    Speaking of "making it up" as we go along, I got questions
    for you. I made the following up:

    We all have our beliefs.
    Here below is one of my beliefs:

    {1} What Is Atheism?
    At bottom atheism is the personal decision to keep the God that
    created them OUT of their lives.
    Atheism is humans telling God to "get away from me, I want no
    part of you, I do not want YOU God, telling me how to live my life,"
    Atheists want to be, and are, their own god.
    Here is atheism in a nutshell. I am my own god."___JAG

    What is your opinion about that?
    You agree with that?
    What is wrong with that statement?
    If atheists are right -- that there is not God --- then
    my statement up there ought to bring no more than
    a slight amused smile to them. Why? Because there
    is no God.

    Let me restate it like this:

    {2} What Is Atheism?
    At bottom atheism is the personal decision to keep the Easter Bunny that
    created them OUT of their lives.
    Atheism is humans telling the Easter Bunny to "get away from me, I want no
    part of you, I do not want YOU Easter Bunny, telling me how to live my life,"
    Atheists want to be, and are, their own Easter Bunny.
    Here is atheism in a nutshell. I am my own Easter Bunny"___JAG

    Question:

    Do you find either statement objectionable?
    Can you merely smile amusedly at both {1} and {2} ?

    , , , lol , , ,

    Remember now, that on atheism, there is no God
    so neither {1} or {2} should give you any problem
    Yet some atheists do not like to hear {1}.
    But they'd merely smile at {2} ?
    Is that telling?

    Best.

    JAG
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  10. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I think a philosophical celebration of 2 + 2 = 4 could be
    made especially by some philosophical mathematicians.
    I have used it enough where I feel that I ought to celebrate it.
    , , , lol , ,
    I may throw a 2 + 2 = 4 party and celebrate it.
    I would invite you, but the UK is just to far away.

    Best.

    JAG

    ``
     
  11. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Yeah maybe so.
    Could he tear the following to pieces.
    On your desire to life a heroic life and be remembered.
    You DO have that desire, don't you?
    You have lived your life to help others, haven't you?
    But , ,
    Let us assume that you die and cease to exist forever.

    A Monument To Trevor.
    by JAG
    Let us say that your risked your life to save 3000 people that
    were stranded in a dangerous storm and in so doing you lost
    a leg, but you were successful in rescuing them and the "powers
    that be" gave you a medal for your heroic action and later a
    grateful nation erected a statue of Trevor and it stood for
    500 years.

    That would matter to YOU in the short term, but not in the
    long term. On your atheism there would come a time when
    Trevor ceased to exist. And became this 00000

    If Trevor does Cease-To-Exist, then in the long term it
    would not matter to YOU that you had acted heroically
    to save the lives of other human beings.

    If some humans remembered you for 5000 years it would
    NOT matter to YOU because you Ceased-To-Exist and
    had become this 00000.

    So what point am I making? Answer: You need spiritual
    tools to arrive at what really matters.
    John 3:16
    {1) believe and get Eternal Life
    {2} refuse to believe and "perish"

    Here on this spiritual ground your heroic action would
    matter for all Eternity. It would be FOREVER in your mind
    that you had performed a noble heroic action that helped
    other people at great cost to you. It would be known by untold
    billions of human beings who were sharing Eternal Life with you.
    It would matter to YOU and to THEM . . . FOREVER.

    Now why on Earth, would that NOT appeal to you?
    Why would you NOT desire to be known forever.
    And remembered forever by large numbers of
    people that YOU had personally helped by living a
    noble heroic life?

    Why does it not make you very sad to think that all
    your past noble heroic acts will be reduced to 00000
    and will never be remembered by you?

    JAG

    ``
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  12. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,405
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My life is simply one of billions that have, and do exist. If I have helped others through life, they will remember, if not, they won't. Most old people have only one sad thought. That of the sadness felt by loved ones. But that passes over time.

    From one of my favourite poets.

    When I am dead, my dearest
    BY CHRISTINA ROSSETTI
    When I am dead, my dearest,
    Sing no sad songs for me;
    Plant thou no roses at my head,
    Nor shady cypress tree:
    Be the green grass above me
    With showers and dewdrops wet;
    And if thou wilt, remember,
    And if thou wilt, forget.

    I shall not see the shadows,
    I shall not feel the rain;
    I shall not hear the nightingale
    Sing on, as if in pain:
    And dreaming through the twilight
    That doth not rise nor set,
    Haply I may remember,
    And haply may forget.

    Haply = perhaps.
     
  13. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,405
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I have no objection to you believing your statements. As an atheist they mean nothing to me. You make statements to suit yourself. I used to like the easter bunny but due to myxomatosis it's hard to get hold of rabbit for dinner these days.
     
  14. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,405
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Trophy Points:
    113
    here are elements within Biblical Christianity that you are not considering.

    {1} The Lord Jesus said that no man could come to him unless the Father
    draws him to Jesus.

    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and
    I will raise them up at the last day."___The Lord Jesus in John 6:44


    {2} The Lord Jesus said that all that the Father gives Him, will come to Him.

    "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to
    me I will never drive away."___The Lord Jesus John 6:37


    {3} The Lord Jesus said that all His sheep would listen to His voice and would
    follow Him and that He would give them Eternal Life and that they
    "shall never perish."

    "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give
    them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them
    out of my hand."__The Lord Jesus John 10:27-28


    One little thing you are forgetting. Jesus was speaking to the Jews. He never spoke to Gentiles unless they approached him. He sent the 70 out with the express instruction to avoid Gentiles. The Gospel writers, whoever they were, translated Jesus statements for Christianity - long after his death.
     
  15. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    You are never to old and never to set in your ways so that you
    cannot turn to the Lord in Faith.

    It is the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit that converts the
    soul to Faith using the truth of the gospel, such as this:

    "On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the
    tomb for four days. Now Bethany was less than two miles from
    Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to
    comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that
    Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at
    home.

    “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother
    would not have died. But I know that even now God will give
    you whatever you ask.”
    Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
    Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
    Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes
    in me will live, even though they die;26and whoever lives by believing in
    me will never die. Do you believe this?”

    John 11:17-26
    You CAN come to believe this.
    All you have to do is say goodbye to your Secularism.
    It won't "be there for you" in your relatively soon-coming hour of need.


    Thank you for the poem.
    Christina Rossettii was a Christian. I had some friends that
    went to a Christian college where the girls had a society named
    The Christina Rossetti Society.

    "When she was 14, Rossetti suffered a nervous breakdown and left
    school. Bouts of depression and related illness followed. During this
    period she, her mother and her sister became absorbed in the
    Anglo-Catholic movement that developed in the Church of
    England
    . Religious devotion came to play a major role in
    Rossetti's life."___wiki
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Rossetti#Early_life_and_education

    Best.

    JAG
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  16. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Long term, nothing matters but the truth of Romans 5:1
    "Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our
    Lord Jesus Christ."

    The message of salvation was to all of humanity. Did you not
    read Christendom's most famous Bible verse -- John 3:16
    "For God so loved the world"
    John 3:16
    {1} believe and get Eternal Life
    {2} refuse to believe and perish

    That's the kind of stuff that "wars against your soul."
    The message of salvation was to all of humanity. Did you not
    read Christendom's most famous Bible verse -- John 3:16
    "For God so loved the world"
    John 3:16
    {1} believe and get Eternal Life
    {2} refuse to believe and perish

    JAG
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    64,532
    Likes Received:
    13,720
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Luther's "Sola Fide" doctrine is not the only "Truth" that matters ... nevermind the demonstrable fact that we do not know if this doctrine is true.



    So what are you claiming here - 1) Believe what - to get eternal life ? That God loved the world and sacrificed his kid to absolve us from sin. - and all we need to do is believe that this happened .and bingo .. First class ticket through the pearly gates.

    2) and those that do not that a God sacrificed his son to absolve the sins of the world - will suffer eternal torture for this terrible sin.

    That about sum up your claim ?
     
    trevorw2539 likes this.
  18. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,405
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Trophy Points:
    113
    As I told you, the Gospels were written by mostly unknowns long after Jesus death. Do you believe that the writer of Matthews Gospel remembered 3 chapters of Jesus teaching - Sermon on the Mount, which uses OT Scriptures - around 60-70 years after Jesus death? The chat between Jesus and the Devil? Jesus prayer in the garden? The NT is full of OT scriptures, some adapted by Jesus himself.
    Jesus Baptism was in,line with Judaism. Jesus supposed Temptation was in line with Judaism. He followed Jewish ritual - refused the stupid rules of the Pharasaic Priesthood. Ie picking corn to eat on the Sabbath. The donkey in the ditch etc. Marks Great Commission passage was added later and used by Matthew.

    The Jewish great verse Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one, It took the early church 300 years to accept the Doctrine of the Trinity. Even then not all agreed. Or do today.

    Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother
    would not have died. But I know that even now God will give
    you whatever you ask.”
    Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
    Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
    Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes
    in me will live, even though they die;26and whoever lives by believing in
    me will never die. Do you believe this?”
    John 11:17-26


    Jews believe in an afterlife so why would she not believe it. And she did die.

    Some time ago you quoted Jesus saying one must become as a little Child when I spoke of knowledge. Jesus was not talking about knowledge, he was talking humility. Children of the days were brought up to respect and honour their parents. Train a child in the way it should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22v6. That's the reason children, mainly boys were taught to study the Tanakh from the age of 5 through to becoming a man at the age of 13. Despite what many Christians say, Jesus was knowledgeable about the Tanakh for that very reason. Not because he was supposedly the Son of God. In fact, if Jesus were the Son of God he would have known NOT to quote from the Tanakh. Modern archaeology, understanding of ancient history, etc. has disproved many Biblical stories. Of course, you won't believe that but it's there for you to see. It's online, in writing and in Museums all over the world.
     
  19. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,838
    Likes Received:
    2,392
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I suppose, based on the title of the OP, we all ought to thank god for the pestilence he's brought down on the world, killing 700,000 of his flock and wrecking millions of lives.Good job!
     
  20. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,405
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "Observing that historical evidence is rarely sufficient to establish a conclusion
    absolutely and certainly on historical grounds, Wright helpfully describes a
    “scale from . . . ‘extremely unlikely,’ through ‘possible,’ ‘plausible,’ and
    ‘probable,’ to ‘highly probable’” (p. 687 n. 3). Every orthodox Christian
    will be heartened by his conclusion that “the historian, of whatever
    persuasion, has no option but to affirm both the empty tomb and the
    ‘meetings’ with Jesus as ‘ historical events’” (p. 709)
    . The bishop in
    the troubled Anglican church then states with the boldness that
    strengthens faith, “I regard this conclusion as coming in the same
    sort of category, of historical probability so high as to be virtually
    certain, as the death of Augustus in AD 14 or the fall of Jerusalem
    in AD 70” (p. 710)
    . Coming from one of the most prolific and influential
    NT scholars of our day—at a time when scholarship cares not for
    faithfulness but for novelty—a forthright affirmation of the resurrection
    is like the blast of a shofar on the battlefield."
    https://jimhamilton.info/2013/05/28...the,titled The Resurrection of the Son of God.

    'meetings' 'historical events' I regard'- 'historical probability,'
    The death of Augustus and the fall of Jerusalem are not historical probabilities - they are historical fact. The death of Jesus - Son of God - is not..
    The death of a Jewish preacher called Jesus probably occurred. That I would agree with.

    It would be nice, for a change, for someone to study the Nativity stories before going ahead with the death of Jesus. It might save them the trouble.
     
  21. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    You don't know that.
    You tell me lots of things.
    All of them have one thing in common: None of them offer any hope
    for Eternal Life.

    I told you that you are in a losing war with General Time and
    General Death -- they have never lost a battle. Your last battlefield
    will be your Death Bed if you die from natural causes.

    You say, in so many words, that you do not worry about your body
    rotting away in Death --- okay, that means you & me have zero
    common ground. Of course, I don't really believe you on that.

    You say that you are 81 and have had a good life.

    That means you have not been murderously attacked by
    General Cancer.

    I saw a 230 pound healthy man go to 80 pounds when he met
    General Cancer. It took General Cancer 4 years to get him
    down to 80 pounds.

    He was a white man. The chemo turned him the color of a bronze
    stature. I looked at him in his coffin for a long time. He looked
    inhuman. His suffering was incredible over the 4 years it took
    the battlefield General Cancer to kill him. He was a Christian
    too. Throat cancer, twas.

    I am telling you that all your "learning" and all your "knowledge"
    is not going to "be there for you" in your soon-coming hour of need.

    Its one thing to be 81 sitting at your computer pecking away on your
    keyboard to JAG and telling him about all your academic "conclusions"
    when you are healthy and strong enough to write the energetic posts
    like the ones that you do write.

    Its going to be a "whole different ballgame" when you have a close sustained
    prolonged murderous encounte
    r with one of these battlefield Generals:
    General Cancer
    General Stroke
    General Heart Disease
    General Diabetes
    General Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease
    General Severe Alzheimer's Disease
    ___________

    And if you die from natural causes. the chances of you having
    a sustained prolonged murderous encounter with one or more
    of those fierce hate-filled murderous battlefield Generals is
    very HIGH. Three years {or two years} into your likely
    soon-coming ordeal can "give you a long-pause" and you
    may seriously question your "love for Voltaire" and all the
    "brainy stuff" as you lay there choking and dying in your own
    juices Don't argue with the metaphors. If you don't like your
    "love for Voltaire" you can pick another metaphor that you
    like better. Fact is, all your "brainy conclusions" ain't worth
    doodly squat when it comes to your certain-coming battles
    with General Time and General Death.
    All that goes for me too.
    And everybody else.

    Best

    JAG

    PS
    The only true friend you will have there at the end is
    the God that created you and the Lord Jesus.
    "Voltaire" will be nowhere to be found.

    And you know more than enough Bible to fix it before
    its to late to be fixed.
    ``
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  22. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Actually the OP will allow you "to thank god" for the pestilence.
    Let's see if you will be consistent with what you just said.
    You do agree with my 1 - 12, do you not?
    If you do not agree with my 1 - 12 why do you think we ought
    "to thank god" for the pestilence based upon the OP? You said that
    "god" did a "good job" killing those 700,000.

    JAG Writes About What Some Atheists say:
    {1) I am an atheist.
    {2} i don't believe in God.
    {3} But He may exist.
    {4} I can't prove He does.
    {5} I can't prove He doesn't.
    {6} The Bible says He is Omnipotent.
    {7} That means He is all powerful.
    {8} He could have created a different world.
    {9} But He did not do that.
    {10} He created the world we now have.
    {11} That means He is responsible for all that exists.
    {12} Therefore God is responsible for bone cancer in children.
    {13} I want to be consistent with this principle.
    {14} Therefore God is also responsible for Hospitals and the Red Cross

    ___________________________________________
    "My point is NOT that God IS good or that God IS evil.
    My point is that God PERFORMS both good and evil acts
    based upon {6} through {14}. Remember {6} through {12}
    is what atheist say --- {6} through {12} is NOT what JAG
    says. I do NOT have to be consistent with a position
    that I do NOT hold. But atheists do. Why? because they
    DO hold {6} through {12} to be true and they DO advocate
    for {6} through {12} all the time in threads."___JAG
    _____________________________________________

    You are an atheist.
    You do not believe that God exist.
    But you postulate that God does exist so you can
    blame Him for killing 700,000 of His flock.
    You said "god , , , [did a] . . "good job" killing 700,000
    You're saying that if God does exist, then He killed
    700,000 of His flock, right? So you would say that 11 is true.

    And if 11 is true, then 14 is also true too, right?

    JAG
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  23. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,405
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Why do you avoid all the questions I ask? I've had no answer from you except that you don't accept facts.

    I appreciate all your efforts to convert me, but it won't help. Your understanding of life, your understanding of the Bible and inability to answer any real questions about the Bible shows your indoctrination is complete. How do you expect to convince anyone, let alone me, if you can't answer Biblical questions. If you were in school and the teacher couldn't tell you what 12 x 12 was you wouldn't think much of him/her if they told you 148. Or would you simply accept she/he was right. I've shown you many things, factual, but you've never questioned them. You're simply frightened to acknowledge you might be wrong and that your faith will be shaken. If you have faith in the Son of God, then the fact that Jericho's walls fell down by an earthquake and not Joshua won't make any difference. Neither will admitting you may be wrong on that and other things in the Bible.

    Science progresses by questioning. To become a Master of anything you have to question what you are studying. At this precise moment scientists are questioning the actions of Covid and asking themselves what will be useful in a vaccine.

    All these Generals are a fact of life. Death will come to us all in the end. My partner was a nurse and she and I cleaned my fathers body when he died of cancer. I was there when my mother was ill and the doctors wanted to keep her alive for a few days longer when all she wanted was to be allowed to go. My sister and I prevented the doctor from treating her. and she passed peacefully. Whatever will be will be. Years ago I was a church organist. During funerals the coffin was placed in the chancel just behind me. The priest sprinkled Holy Water over the coffin and some went over me. Perhaps that will help.;) Who knows. If I have a few years left some of those generals might have been defeated.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  24. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,035
    Likes Received:
    425
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I give you answers that you do not want to hear.
    I will not change my answers.
    I will not "play your game."
    Christianity is a Faith.
    Plus I have no personal interest in researching the answers to
    your questions. That could take hours and hours --- spent on
    subjects that I don't have any personal interest in researching.

    I do not accept what YOU call "facts."
    I have explained why.
    Its all up-thread.

    Thank you.
    Humans do not convert other humans.
    The Holy Spirit does ALL that work.
    He uses simple gospel preaching.

    My refusal to "play your game" does not demonstrate my
    "inability" -- rather it demonstrates my intelligence and my
    memory. I will not spend hours and hours researching
    Conservative answers to your Liberalism and present it to
    you only to have you "brush it it off" as incorrect. I have
    "been out here" to long to NOT know how that "game is
    played."

    Also that is a "sword that cuts both ways." That means I can
    ask YOU a long list of questions and tie up hours and hours
    of your time researching answers. I know how to do that
    and I can do that BIG TIME too.

    I do NOT expect to convince anyone.
    The Holy Spirit does that work.
    It appears you are "far gone" into Liberalism.
    Used to be a "church organist" too.
    Judas had his reasons also.

    That is not a fact.
    You do not know that Jericho's walls fell down by an earthquake.
    You could not prove that an earthquake caused that if you were
    offered $100,000,000

    No.
    You can admit that you are wrong.
    And you are wrong about "what's really important."

    Cling to your god science.
    Science will not "be there for you" in your relatively soon-coming
    hour of need.
    And you're one of the good guys too.

    Yeah.
    My "deadly murderous Generals" post to you still stands true.
    I know it.
    You know it.

    "Whatever will be will be" is not going to be there for you in your
    hour of need.
    Sorry about the loss of your father and mother.
    Not a word of that up there eliminates the truth of what I wrote to
    you about those deadly murderous Generals "coming after you"
    personally.
    All that up there was not happening to YOUR body. My post to
    you on the deadly murderous Generals still stand true. And you
    know it.
    My motive is good.
    You need a Friend.{John 3:16}
    Not a "Voltaire."
    And not another "scientist" either.
    And not another "fact" that provides you
    with another reason to reject Faith.

    Oh Yeah.
    This below still stands true:
    Its going to be a "whole different ballgame" when you have a
    close sustained prolonged murderous encounter with one
    of these battlefield Generals:
    General Cancer
    General Stroke
    General Heart Disease
    General Diabetes
    General Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease
    General Severe Alzheimer's Disease
    _________

    Best

    JAG
     
  25. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    8,776
    Likes Received:
    4,065
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No you don't. You don't give answers at all. You are not engaging in conversation whatsoever. You are preaching. You are hardly interactive at all.

    Nobody here seems to be playing any game except for you.

    Yet you will "brush off" anything trevorw or anybody else says, as you continue to preach the same thing over and over, spending plentiful hours doing so.

    No, your motive is selfish. You are clearly trying to convince yourself of what you keep repeating. Otherwise, you'd be willing to converse rather than simply preach.
     
    trevorw2539 likes this.

Share This Page