Atheists Who Celebrate All The Good That God Causes.

I haven't questioned that, I have questioned why you want people to insert it into discussions which do not hinge upon it. You have read through 36 pages of comments, and you have either failed to understand my point, or deliberately choose to avoid it in favour of other points, neither of which is becoming.

Ok, why aren't hospitals included in the list of things that you don't mention, and that you don't criticise atheists for not including?

 

Ok, so you have some concept of seriousness that apparently plays in. I've asked you over and over for your reasoning to include hospitals and not kelp, and this only turns up now. No wonder this thread drags. Ok, so what is the level of "seriousness and gravity" that something is supposed to have for it to be reasonable to include it in discussions that do not hinge on it?

It seems to me that to an atheist who is making the argument from evil, 12 has more "seriousness and gravity" than 14, since 12 can lead to an argument against the very existence of God, whereas 14 cannot tell either way.

The word celebrate seems to be central in your op, and even in your thread title. In fact, I haven't had anything interesting to say about your points 1-14, I'm addressing more or less only the addendum that you try to sneak in under the radar about "celebrating", and complaints about the fact that atheists don't include it in certain discussions (where I think it does not belong). Therefore, it baffles me that you keep reposting it in larger and redder letters, when my objections are about something else.

 

This seems to entirely avoid my point. My point is not about the truth of the points, but your interest in having them stated in discussions where they are beside the point. What makes you think restating those points addresses the concerns I've actually brought up?

 

I'm still waiting to hear an answer to my first objection. We could discuss what I'm actually saying, if you want something you haven't discussed yet.

Depends on what you mean by subjects. Nowadays, it goes between systems engineering, story telling and organising manufacturing. If I had more than 3, I might add funk music theory and linguistics, and a range of other things.

This is a classic thought experiment regarding abortion. I don't know that it is particularly hard hitting, it still has a few fundamental differences, such as the kidnapping aspect. Either way, what is the question. It would seem to me the "you" in the story is morally permitted to do anything they choose.

I did, there is just too many posts to get to it all promptly.

 

Alright, would you see fit to add it to another discussion where you're trying to make an unrelated point? Do you think a third person would be justified in being tired of you not mentioning it?

 

Another waste of space. You won't answer my points because you can't. You keep threatening me with Generals. I don't know any but I spent 5 years in the RAF and knew some RAF officers. I don't think you have any real understanding of life outside the wall you have built around yourself. Truth doesn't matter unless it fits in with your beliefs.

Mentioning my parents was to tell you that I am quite used to the idea of death. As you get older the fear of death grows less. Some old people I know are quite prepared for it, some even want it to relieve their loneliness.

Tying up 'hours and hours' is simply an excuse for doing nothing.

I think that proving the Earthquake destroying Jericho will be done when people begin to understand that the Whole story was written much later using the destruction as part of the story. There is no evidence whatever for Joshua outside the story and history/archaeology show up other errors in the story.

It's sad that you have to threaten me with Generals. I am already used to pain having damaged my back doing a 'good deed'. That's life.

Love is not sharing someone's joys,
It's sharing someone's pain.
It's easy sharing in summer days
Not so in winter's rain.

Love is not sharing someone's gain,
It's sharing someone's loss.
It's easy sharing joys they have,
Not so to take their cross.

In love we match our positives
To dull each others fears.
It's easier then to share our lives
And take us down the years.

Love is the greatest gift of all.
Love knows no fear of pain.
So come what may, whate'er befalL
Let only love remain.

 

No Trevor,
It was a most excellent use of space.
Magnificent is the word to describe it.
I told you the truth.
The truth can help you.
{and me too}
{and all of us}

Incorrect.
I can.
My refusal to "play your game" does not demonstrate my
"inability" -- rather it demonstrates my intelligence and my
memory. I will not spend hours and hours researching
Conservative answers to your Liberalism and present it to
you only to have you "brush it it off" as incorrect. I have
"been out here" to long to NOT know how that "game is
played."

I do not.
I have not.
I will not.
I merely tell you the truth.
You are 81.
This is the truth:
Its going to be a "whole different ballgame" when you have a
close sustained prolonged murderous encounter with one
of these battlefield Generals:
General Cancer
General Stroke
General Heart Disease
General Diabetes
General Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease
General Severe Alzheimer's Disease
_____

You need your Friend.
The Lord Jesus.
You know, the One you used to believe in.
It is not to late,
You know what 11th Hour Repentance is.
And you are in your 11th Hour

Yeah well my "Generals" are not as nice and polite as the RAF
officers were. My Generals will kill you. Slow too. And very painful.
General Cancer is especially severe.

I feel the same way about your posts.
My view is that you have closed your mind to Faith.
You made a bad choice a long time ago.
Now you have to "live with it" ----and you see the
"hand-writing on the wall" so to speak.
During those times when you are "quiet with yourself"
you know in your "heart of hearts" that you have made
a HUGE mistake.

That describes your Liberalism perfectly.

No.
Not the same as YOU personally encountering those ugly
murderous Generals.

That ain't nothing but "whistling past the graveyard" -- that's
an "old saying" that means you're scared to death, but you
whistle as you past the graveyard late at night -- to make
yourself believe that you're not really afraid.

You don't know what is really in their minds.

No.
My refusal to "play your game" does not demonstrate my
"inability" -- rather it demonstrates my intelligence and my
memory. I will not spend hours and hours researching
Conservative answers to your Liberalism and present it to
you only to have you "brush it it off" as incorrect. I have
"been out here" to long to NOT know how that "game is
played."

Yeah.
Like I said you can NOT prove that an earthquake caused those walls
to fall down if you were offered $100,000,000
.

What is really sad, is to be 81 and not have your Friend
the Lord Jesus by your side in your certain relatively
soon-coming "hour of need."
Like I said, you are one of the good guys.
You don't have any hate in your heart.
You're worth saving.
But all that Liberal garbage in your head, is NOT your friend,
its your enemy. The Enemy of your soul.

I am very sorry to hear that.
I will pray for you.

Thank you for the verse.
It was beautiful.

_____


Best.

JAG


Here is that prayer I promised:

May the Lord Bless and keep you.
May the Lord make His face to shine upon you.
May the Lord be gracious unto you.
May the Lord turn His face towards you.
May the Lord give you peace.
May the Lord always protect you.
May the Lord ease your pains.
May the Lord protect all those you love.
{Based on Numbers 6:22-27}


``

 

Yeah I know.
I modified it to 3 months in order to avoid the abortion issue.

I understand.
And thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.
Would you agree to be hooked up to another person in bed for
3 months in order to save their life -- is one issue in The Violinist
Thought Experiment. Love would say "Yeah I will agree to that."

JAG

 

I wouldn't usually ask this, being new on the forum and all, but....

Is JAG a bot or a real person?

It keeps repeating the same text like one of those old computer programs written for "conversation". Eliza

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA

 

I don't think anything morally significant changes by changing the time frame. If you can construct a moral argument that applies in the one case, it very likely applies just as well if you change the number. You haven't avoided the abortion issue, you've just hidden it.

I do not think that question is the point of the argument. As with most moral arguments, the question is not what you would do (that's just your preference, not a moral argument, even if your preference is based in morality), but whether you are morally permitted or mandated to do it. The creator of the example for instance says

...one can now permissibly unplug themself from the violinist even though this will cause his death: this is due to limits on the right to life, which does not include the right to use another person's body, and so by unplugging the violinist, one does not violate his right to life but merely deprive him of something—the use of someone else's body—to which he has no right. "If you do allow him to go on using your kidneys, this is a kindness on your part, and not something he can claim from you as his due."[5]​

(source)

As you can see, the conclusion she draws is about whether it is permissible to unplug oneself, not whether she or you or someone else actually would do it.

 

You've told me nothing but your beliefs. No facts - just faith.

And if you have to whistle when walking through a graveyard at night that's your problem. Many years ago the quickest way home for me was through a very dark graveyard. It was simply the quickest way home. No whistllng required, the ghosts were very friendly.

Whistling past the graveyard was a song mainly about railroad tracks.

You've told me nothing but your inability to understand what is truth and what is faith.

Whistling past the graveyard was a song about a man travelling the railroads.

I used to walk home regularly through a churchyard day or night, as it saved me a long walk round. No problem. The ghosts were quite friendly when you got to know them. Your prayer should be for the children throughout the world dying through hunger, that they may receive food to keep them alive. After all Jesus said 'suffer little to come upto me etc......' But he doesn't seem to be helping them much. If he's omnipotent then he has the power. And don't tell me these little innocent children have 'free will' to decide for themselves.

You simply brush off MY facts but what's to suppose I would do the same to you. Provide a convincing refutation of my 'facts'. Who knows, I might agree with you.

You are convinced that I will have one of the 'Generals'. That's certainly encouraging. It means I will not get knocked down in the High Street tomorrow,

The poem is one I wrote during a difficult period. People don't want sympathy, they want support. If you can give that it's worth more than all your prayers.

 

Belief {FAITH} is your Friend.
What you call "Facts" are your Enemy.

Noted.

I didn't know that.

Incorrect.
What you call "truth" is false.
What you call "facts" is your Liberalism -- the Liberalism that has
caused you to turn your back on your Friend the Lord Jesus.

Noted.

Noted.
I smiled.
Thanks for the amusing moment.

Both.
For them.
And for you.

We are mere humans.
We are deeply flawed.
Very sinful. Evil.
We have no right to question the Lord Jesus or God.
We have an obligation to help make the world better.
I do that. $$$
Samaritan's Purse. Google it. "Helping In Jesus' Name" is their motto.

You set yourself up as His judge now.
He will be your Judge at The Judgment.
But it doesn't have to be that way.
You still have time to change it back like it used to be.

I will not tell you that.
I will tell you that we humans are not qualified to
sit in judgment on Almighty God and condemn Him
for the present world conditions.

Your "facts" have the aroma of Death and Destruction clinging
to them. Your "facts" are your Enemy. The Enemy of your soul.

Read William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga and N.T. Wright.
Start with N.T. Wright. Start with his "The Resurrection Of The
Son Of God" --- you like "facts" you'll get thousands of them
in just that one book. Historical facts to. You'll never be the same.
Its a masterpiece too.

I might win the lottery too.

My motive was to help you return to your Friend the Lord Jesus.

My intentions were good.
I sought to encourage you to face reality.
My motive was not to discourage you.
God is our ever present help in times of trouble.
"What A Friend we Have In Jesus"
You know all that.
You turned your back on it.
But you can turn that around, if you want to.
Why don't you do that Trevor?
Why don't you come back to the the Lord Jesus.
He will "take you back."

Yeah they do want sympathy.

They want that too.

Both.
Give them sympathy and prayers.
And some money too.
Do I do that? Yes. Samaritan's Purse , , , and , , ,
Recently had a tree removed by a handyman.
$950.00
I gave him an extra $100.00 as a tip.
And he did not do the best job he could have done.

JAG

 

The People Have Spoken , , ,

Swensson,
Thanks for your response to my question "Did you see The Violinist Thought Experiment?".
and thanks for your comments.
For argument's sake let us say there is no God.
So what Authority is there --- if there is no God.
Answer: The People. The Authority is The People.

Cars and pigs and twigs do not make laws or issue proclamations about what
is "morally permitted" or about so-called "human rights" --- The People do that.
So?
{A} So let us say that 98% of The People Of Earth issued a Moral Proclamation
that said the man does NOT have the moral right to unplug the Violinist --- then that
would become THE TRUTH, right? You would NOT have the moral right to unplug the
Violinist.
Do you agree?

_____________


{B} Let us also say that 98% of The People Of Earth have outlawed Murder and said "Thou Shall
Not Murder"
Question: Do you have a moral obligation to obey The People when they collectively issue a
proclamation that murder is outlawed?

_______________

{C} Let us also say that 98% of The People Of Earth issued an Moral Proclamation
that said:
"Henceforth The Teaching Of Secular Humanism Is Outlawed Upon Penalty Of Death"
You would then be morally obligated to cease teaching the principles of Secular Humanism.
Is that correct?
Do you agree?
_____

Here is another version of the same thing leaving off the penalty.
{D} Let us say that 98% of The People Of Earth issued a Moral Proclamation
that said:
"Henceforth The Teaching Of Secular Humanism Is Outlawed."
You would then be morally obligated to cease teaching the principles of Secular Humanism.
Is that correct?
Do you agree?

____________

JAG

 

Faith is something you believe in unseen. Facts are things seen and proven.

Read William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga and N.T. Wright.
Start with N.T. Wright. Start with his "The Resurrection Of The
Son Of God" --- you like "facts" you'll get thousands of them
in just that one book. Historical facts to. You'll never be the same.
Its a masterpiece too.

As I said before the conclusion he comes to has various 'ifs' and 'buts'. He gives no definite irrefutable proof because there is none, whereas the facts I give you are irrefutable to the open mind. His conclusion:

"This[the resurrection] remains, of course, unprovable in logical or mathematical terms. The historian is never in a position to do what Pythagoras did: not content with drawing more and more right-angled triangles and demonstrating that the square on the hypotenuse always does in fact equal the sum of the squares on the other two sides, he constructed a theorem to prove that this must always be the case. With history it is not like that. Almost nothing is ever ruled out absolutely; history, after all, is mostly the study of the unusual and unrepeatable. What we are after is high probability; and this is to be attained by examining all the possibilities, all the suggestions, and asking how well they explain the phenomena
In terms of the kind of proof which historians normally accept, the case we have presented, that the tomb-plus-appearances combination is what generated early Christian belief, is as watertight as one is likely to find."

We certainly are humans and as such some are good and some bad.

I'm not judging your god. He doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. If he did I repeat what I said.

Most people don't want sympathy or prayers. If you can empathise with them then it's a different matter. How can you really sympathise with someone if you have never had the same experience.And prayers to an unbeliever are not much help.

Radiation is a 'fact' used to help cure, in many cases, various cancers.. Or do you reject that fact? It's a proven fact that Abraham Lincoln was assassinated. What is a' 'fact' in your mind? Something that fits your beliefs. Facts save lives. Would you drive down a cliffside road after heavy rain when the facts show the tendency for landslides? Facts are facts whether you accept them or not. You may choose to disbelieve but that doesn't alter the 'facts'.
.T

 

Good thing too.
Hebrews 11:6

Not what you call "facts" -- they're not proven. All they are
is re-hashed anti-Christian Liberalism.
The Liberals decided long ago to "go after" the historical
background of both the Old and the New Testaments and they
did. People like Bart Ehrman despise Christianity and do all they
can to discredit and destroy the Bible. You'd love Bart, he
will feed you exactly what you crave. Bart is on YouTube you
can "soak him up."

Well now, that tells me all I need to know about what a "discussion"
with you would be like --- which I already knew BEFORE you told me
that you dismissed Wright's book BEFORE you had read it --- you would
DO THE EXACT SAME THING with my presented research --- this is why
I told you I would not "play your game." I have "been out here" to long
to fall for your "invitation." I know how it would go.

False.
They are not.

See what I bolded up there.
Probability is ALL you will ever get on these highly controversial issues.
I notice you have not coughed up proof that an earthquake caused the
walls of Jericho to fall down --- nor can you -- and if you did find some
proof, it would be in the category of Probability. You KNOW that's true.

Noted.

He is your God too.

I doubt that.
Romans chapter 1 says you know that God exists.
Romans chapter 1 says that God has revealed Himself to you.
Romans chapter 1 says that humans "suppress the truth"
about the knowledge of God.

Incorrect.
The exact opposite is the truth.
Most people DO want sympathy and prayers.
They want money too.
And love.
And kindness.

I can.
I do.

I can use my vivid imagination to put myself in their place, and mentally
dwell on their situation for a long time.

You don't know that.
God can answer prayers that you are not aware of.
You don't know that you will not return to faith in God
because God answered my prayers asking that you would
do that. How do you know what will happen 10 days
hence? You don't know. You can't know.
God may bring you back to Him using my prayers as the means.
You don't know He will not do that.
I don't know He will do that.

Yeah I've seen what that can do.
Its the Good, the Bad, and the Really Ugly.

No.

True.

That's easy.
Here is a fact.

P1 All men are mortal.
P2 Trevor is a man.
C Therefore Trevor is mortal.

Here is another fact.
2 + 2 = 4

Now you give me an argument that is at the 2 + 2 = 4 Certainty-level
proving that the walls of Jericho fell down due to an earthquake,
You can't do it.

Exactly.
As noted up-post.
A fact is at the 2 + 2 = 4 level of certainty, otherwise it is NOT a fact.
What is it?
Answer: Its an argument that is in the area of Probability and Plausibility
which is AWAYS going to be saturated with our human subjective
biases
prejudices
presuppositions , , ,
, , , this is why your so-called "Facts" are NOT really facts.

Not your kind of "facts."
Your kind of "facts" take lives and destroy them , , , human souls, I mean.

Depends on the urgency of the reason for my drive.
Depends on the level of Probability of the evidence.
We can use the % scale to grade Probability {and Plausibility}
10%
20%
30%
40%
50%
60%
70%
80%
90%
99%
There is no 100% because 100% takes you to the 2 + 2 = 4 level
of certainty and you're no longer in the subjective area of Probability
and Plausibility.
So would I drive down the road under your conditions?
Maybe I would.
Let's say that I judged the evidence for the likely-hood of a
mudslide to be at 30% and that my reasons to make the drive
was to help another human being who really needed my help.
Yes, I would make the drive.
How about if at 90%?
Probably not.
I'd look for another way to get to the person needing my help.
How about if at 50%?
Maybe? I might risk it?

Your "facts" are NOT facts.

Your "facts" are not facts.
They are re-hashed anti-Christian Liberalism which went after the
Bible's historical background in an effort to undermine the truth
of Christianity.

Best.

JAG

PS
Keep in touch. I will talk to you as long as you want to chat.


``

 

False
You don't know that.
God can answer prayers that you are not aware of.

He is your God too.

 

Your "facts" are not facts.
They are re-hashed anti-Christian Liberalism which went after the
Bible's historical background in an effort to undermine the truth
of Christianity.

That's where you are out of touch with reality. If I took you to the British Museum, or other museums, to see artifacts confirming what I have told you, you would simply believe they were all created thousands of years ago to fool future generations. Sorry, you're just not real.

Good luck with your 'reality'.

 

Speaking about "facts" , , ,
All you did was quote my post.
You wrote nothing.
Does doing that have significance?
If so what significance?

Best.

JAG

``

 

Your quote
Your "facts" are not facts.
They are re-hashed anti-Christian Liberalism which went after the
Bible's historical background in an effort to undermine the truth
of Christianity.

My quote

That's where you are out of touch with reality. If I took you to the British Museum, or other museums, to see artifacts confirming what I have told you, you would simply believe they were all created thousands of years ago to fool future generations. Sorry, you're just not real.

Good luck with your 'reality'.

Goodbye.

 

You are the one that is out of touch with reality and
out of touch Big Time too. I have showed you why
that is true, yet you have ignored all my facts and have
proceeded to cling desperately to your incorrect beliefs.

There are no artifacts in any museum in the world that proves
Christianity to be untrue. The claim that there is such, is just
more anti-Christian Liberalism hawking its false teachings
in order to try and undermine Christianity.

Sorry, you are the one that is not real.
You have been duped by the Enemy Of Your Soul.
He has won.
You have lost.
This is pure sadness.
And you were once in church , , ,
, , ,making music for the Lord Jesus.
But you turned aside , ,
, , and turned your back to the One who died for you
on that cruel Cross.

I guess that is your way of saying goodbye?
To bad.
I could have helped you come back to faith in God.
But you are locked down on your atheism and you
refuse to budge. This is very sad. I am so sorry.
______

I write the following with the motive to help you see
the truth:
Your Atheistic Religion will destroy you.
Atheism is a religion.
Trevor is an atheist.
Trevor has a God.
Trevor's God is named Trevor.
Trevor is his own Supreme Being.
Trevor is his own God.
There is nothing higher in Trevor's world than Trevor.
or other Trevor's that share Trevorism with Trevor such as , , ,
~ the anti-Christian Liberals that write books attacking the
historical background of the Bible
~ other atheists who support Trevor in his soul-destroying incorrectness
, , all these are some of Trevor's junior gods.
{Trevor holds them in Higher Esteem than the Lord Jesus.}

But Trevor's Major-Primary God is Trevor and
as long as Trevor remains an atheist Trevor
will forever be his own God and will experience
the "perish" of John 3:16
{1} believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and Perish
________

Atheism is at bottom the human person saying to the
true God, "Get away from me, I want no part of you,
I do not want you telling me how to live my life. I desire
to live my life the way I decide I want to live it, and I do
not want to have anything to do with you, God."

Here is The Religion Of Atheism in a nutshell: I am my own God.

By the way, Trevor being his own God is why Trevor
will not be in Heaven. Why is that? Because God will
not share His throne with a mere man. That's not hard
to understand --- it simply means that there can only
be one God in Heaven and since Trevor is his own
God, Trevor will not be in Heaven.

But it doesn't have to end this way. As long as Trevor
has life, he has a choice. Revelation 3:20 says the
Lord Jesus stands at the door and knocks. Trevor
has a choice:
{1} open the door and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to open the door and remain his own God.

JAG


``

 

My friend, reality is John 3:16 and the New Testament's
many other truths explaining how to get Eternal Life.
Reality is the Lord Jesus dying on that Old Rugged Cross
for your sins.
Reality is God forgiving you for your sins because you
placed your faith in the Lord Jesus as your Savior.
Reality is having peace with God. Romans 5:1
Reality is having the fruits of the Holy Spirit as
described in Galatians 5: 22-23
~ love
~ joy
~ peace
~ patience
~ kindness
~ goodness
~ faithfulness
~ gentleness
~ self-control

Goodbye.
You will always remember, as Eternity rolls on and on,
that JAG did his very best to help you see the light. But
you said No. You prefer to remain your own God -- and
so it shall ever be.

You demand separation from God. If you persist in this
demand, there will come a time when God will
finally at last, grant that which you demand --- total
and complete separation from Him and all His
goodness --- for all Eternity. This will be agony for you.

Your "facts" ,and your "museums" and your "artifacts"
will be of zero help to you when this occurs.

If you change your mind, I will always be happy to chat
with you.

The Very Best To You.

JAG

 

A reality passage from Philippians chapter 2

"Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ,
if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any
tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being
like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind.

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility
value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but
each of you to the interests of the others.

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ
Jesus: Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."
________

Take care.


JAG


``

 

In case you're interested , , ,
Do The People Have The Moral Authority To Outlaw Atheism?
http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ity-to-outlaw-atheism.576851/#post-1071952708

JAG

 

No, there is no appeal to "the people" or some version of direct democracy as you have described it here in my post. Humanism (in the secular humanism sense) grew out of a world in which the vast vast majority of people were religious and received (or thought they received) their moral intuitions from religion, so obviously humanism isn't going to just rely on popular opinion.

Humanism gives us access to considerations of moral worth through our humanity. That is where the name Humanism comes from. If I hit you for no reason and it hurts, it was immoral (obviously, there's a lot of caveats, but you get the gist). No "Moral Proclamation" on behalf of the "People Of Earth" is going to change that.

There are different understandings as to how that plays out (as it does in any tradition) but I'm partial to a Rawlsian approach. It is similar to a direct democratic approach, but instead of asking the people, the verdict lies with a hypothetical human or set of humans (under certain conditions, most interestingly the "veil of ignorance").