Attempted Suicide Rates More Than Double After Gender-Reassignment Surgery: Study

Yes. That exists as well. But when I offered to show that, you got mad and said, no, you wanted something else. So I gave you the evidence that you asked for. I'll help you read it after I'm done with lunch.

 

LOL....Yeah sure thing Mr Science.

My point has been made. I have no intention of getting on your never-ending carousel of aimless bickering. I have wondered before whether it is just me that brings this out in you, but a quick glance over the last few pages reveals that you are engaged in doing so with several different people. What a shock! (sarcasm)

Is aimless bickering and obfuscation essentially what you do on here? I don't see the point.

 

You don't see the point of actually discussing evidence. And please make up your mind. Do you want
1) evidence of social determiners of depression or
2) do you want research on social acceptance/rejection and the mental health of trans people?

I offered you the first one and you accused me of changing the subject, demanding the second one instead. Now that we are talking about that, you are changing your mind again and asking for the first one. Make up your mind.

 

Meh.

You had your chance.

It is time for us to move along.

 

Well, even though you have no interest in learning anything that might challenge transphobia, and since you keep shifting the goalposts, I'll just go ahead and provide research for the other claim (which I'm sure you will change the goalposts again:

Biological, Psychological, and Social Determinants of Depression: A Review of Recent Literature - PMC (nih.gov)

You claimed to have some knowledge of psychology. Your claim that there are no social determinants for depression prove that this isn't true.

 

...and what text do you BELIEVE reveals this conclusion due to "research"? Not only does this not contain your claim, but it isn't even actual "research". It is a retrospective analysis. Yeesh.

The goalposts have not changed one iota. I am not sure whom it is that you think you are fooling with such a claim.

 

Oh wait, I thought society acceptance was a reason for the suicide rate? Are you saying are society is accepting of blacks? Or are you claiming that it doesn't matter and the only thing that does is acceptance from family?

Hint: this won't end well for your argument.

 

I . . . take it you've never written a research paper in school before. You are doing an analysis of other research results in light of other sources. This absolutely is research. Meta analysis IS research. Did you look at the sources used? Yeaaaah, those are research papers, buddy. And since using the index or using Ctrl + F seems to pose a challenge, I'll help you out.

Dude, it's even formatted in a way that every single high school knows is a research paper. I showed it to my wife to get her take. She has a PhD in Biology and did several years of postdoc research. She just looked at me like I was an idiot and said . . . yes, that's a research paper.

Another hint: each of those numbers that you see you can click on them for all of the research that informed this research paper's conclusion.

Yes. The goalposts have changed. I offered evidence for one thing, you got angry and demanded research for another instead and even accused me of being deceptive for trying to answer the exact same question you are asking now. So I provided the evidence you asked for, then you went back to pretending that you really wanted the thing that you told me you didn't want. I can post the quotes if you want.

 

Social acceptance is a major factor in depression. Depression is a major factor in the suicide rate. Try to keep up. This ain't rocket surgery. If you had been listening at all, or read any of the links I gave, social acceptance isn't about some sort of need for an individual to be accepted by the entire country. It is about acceptance within actual social groups, particularly the family. Hint: try to ****ing read this time. It's not going well for the thing you are pretending is an argument. By the way, feel free to actually try to refute any of the research I've provided. You can start with my previous post. To FAW.

 

From the looks of the conversation, it looks like you need to keep up. I agree its not rocket science. The fact you can't explain why any other social groups experiencing similar or worst treatment matches the suicide rate should be eye opening to you. Instead , you've resorted to petty insults and personal attacks.....which makes your position even more ironic because you claim rejection of community /family is what leads to the suicide. Yet here you are , dropping insults and snide comments over and over to others in your community who've you've never met all the while saying that the same action is what leads to trans suicides.

 

LOL. Zerohedge.
Just another fake news source.

Fake data.

 

A link to the study is in the first sentence of the article.

 

I've explained why the treatment they face is different. You were incapable of addressing that. I will try to use smaller words: black people have easier access to social communities that accept them than trans people do. Is it still bad? Yep! But they aren't the same. If you were being honest, you'd try to find actual comparable groups if you were concerned about researching black suicide rates. Hint: this is not going to go well for your argument.

 

I understand your animus toward qualified medical practitioners dedicated to treating their patients based upon their familiarity with their patients and their scientific acumen in their discipline.

Can you document specific examples of treatment that upset you?

Do you believe statist ideologues with no medical credentials over qualified physicians in other medical specialties as well? If so, what are they?

 

Pray tell what a "comparable group" would be. Also would LOVE to know what treatment you think trans receive from their family that is so different from anyone else who struggles with home relationship.

Back to blacks, because i think they are a GREAT example, you think they have a great home structure they get to go home to each night that counters societal racism?

 

I didn't find this statement from zero hedge in the study. "surgically turning one's dick into a vagina)"

Perhaps the study is legit and there's a higher rate of attempts, but zerohedge as the main source for something legit is irresponsible.

 

Having a social support networks helps when you are facing hardships. The hardships are still there, but they are blunted.

Hardships but with a community to support you: still bad, but it could get worse.
Hardships but with no community to support you: that's how it gets worse.

I'm getting a little tired of you pretending you can't understand such simple concepts. If you state again that you can't understand this, I simply won't believe you.

 

A retrospective analysis is NOT research I am sorry if you do not understand the difference. It is not worth trying to get you to understand.

With that being said, I applaud you for finally putting yourself out there and posting something specific enough to warrant a substantive response. It would have saved a lot of time if you had done so initially, but I can work with what you have presented regardless.

The most applicable part here that supports your position is this...

"There are many social determinants linked to depression, such as sociodemographics, social support, adverse childhood experiences"

OK....that is NOT Research. It is speculation. It is not holding itself out there to be research, only you are. On top of that, this is NOT about trans specifically or any of the negative reactions they experience.

One can very logically state that negative social interactions are related to depression and even suicide, but such a determination is NOT the result of RESEARCH. Nobody has claimed that being treated poorly doesn't lead to feeling bad, but even feeling bad, is wholly separate from actual clinical depression. Yes people with clinical depression feel bad and have negative things in their life but what differentiates them from a non clinically depressed cohort is how they react and recover from feeling bad. The truth is, EVERYONE has negative things in their life and feel bad at different times, not just people that are clinically depressed. There is no association that has been made that people that have clinical depression were treated worse than those that do not have clinical depression. There is no correlation to that at all. It is not as if you go to the ghetto and they have higher rates of suicide than the suburbs because the people in the ghetto on the whole have had far more adverse events happen in their life. This reality alone sort of points away from adverse events being the underlying cause, but unlike you, I am not claiming that to be the product of "research" rather it is the product of logical speculation. This would not be provable via research. You might be able to make some correlations, but proven by research?...absolutely not. You could never have a placebo arm which would be necessary for such a scientific determination.

Dont confuse my use of the word correlation with research. They are two different things. Undoubtedly you can correlate a preceding negative event for virtually all suicides, but this is far different from claiming that it has been proven through research that this negativity is what caused them to have clinical depression. Suicide is in most cases assumed in the psychiatric community to be the result of clinical depression. Notice that my language is different than what you are putting forth. Assumptions do NOT equate to research. You are improperly conflating those two things to be the same.

You are beyond any shadow of a doubt employing the Dunning Kruger effect where you are way overestimating your knowledge or skill in this subject matter.

If you want to push the notion of clicking on whatever you are saying to click on, I encourage you to do so and provide that link and text as a reference. I will be HAPPY to point out why that too is perhaps correlated but not the product of RESEARCH.

Correlation and proven via "research" are two wholly different things. This is why you hear the expression correlation does not equal causality. This is where you are unquestionably mistaken. Studies can mention correlations, but they are careful to not imply that makes the correlation causative.

 

They use these things called "references" to back up their statements. If you want to bitch about any of the references, feel free to do so. I'm done here. I've asked you a question that you refuse to answer, meanwhile you keep asking me more and more. Have fun disagreeing with the entire psychiatric community, both on trans issues and on social determinates of depression.

 

I assure you I am not "bitching". I am merely correctly ringing the BS bell.

I saw you holding your position up as being a scientific conclusion that is the result of "research", when in fact it is no such thing. Correlation does NOT EQUATE to causality. Nobody is refuting that from a logical perspective, bad social interactions don't make people feel bad, of course they do. You are just masquerading your logical speculation as if it is scientific fact and bogusly acting like your opinion holds more scientific validity vs the person you were debating.

Bad social interactions undoubtedly make trans people feel bad. Bad social interactions undoubtedly make non trans people feel bad. To one extent or another everyone has negative things that happen in their life. Most people brush off negative things relatively easily. Clinically depressed people do not. They react very poorly to lifes predictable downs.

Both trans and non trans people with clinical depression will sometimes commit suicide. These are facts. What CAUSED them to be clinically depressed is highly debatable and not provable in any way.

 

You seem to want to blame people who appease instead of the people who are the ones who CHOOSE to have the surgery. The bottom line is that it’s ultimately on the person who chose to have the surgery that is to blame.

 

Again, your dogma and medical expertise differ.

In what other medical disciplines do you believe your ideological politicians with no expertise should by licensed to prohibit medical care?

 

I agree with you to a large extent as far as personal responsibility, but if in fact their belief is a product of delusion and thus a mental illness, the responsibility would then shift to the professionals tasked with helping those patients.

Nobody would blame a 10-year-old kid for such a decision because they are incapable of making adult decisions. The same concept applies to the mentally ill. The professionals with both sets of people have an obligation to know better and save them from themselves.

I fully realize whether or not it is a mental illness is highly debatable, but your response seems to assume that whether they are mentally ill or not, they are the ones responsible. In the case of mental illness, I would blame the professional establishment far more than the mentally ill individual and this belief would extend to all types of delusions, not just trans. I would feel the same way if someone thought that an invisible chip was implanted in their head and the doctor went forward with an open cranial surgery to find it.

 

Okay, let's look at the link that Steve N told us to look at. As others have already pointed out, it shows a decrease in suicide rates for phalloplasty patients . . . something that STILL none of you will address, no matter how many times you are asked, which is telling.

Let's just pretend that we should do what the right wing is suggesting and extrapolate these numbers to trans people as a whole.

I'm going to add both groups together now, look at the total number of patients, how many never attempted suicide at all, how many attempted suicides at some point, and how many had an increased risk of suicide after their surgery.

If this is the data we are using, then first we have to come to the conclusion that:

• The suicide attempt rate for trans people is actually only around 3.59%
• The risk of suicide only increased for around 2.28% of the patients

So, is that what you guys want to go with, or is it no longer appropriate to extrapolate from these numbers? They don't look good for you. I sure as hell don't think we should be extrapolating from these numbers, nor do I think the authors intended us to. But right wing crazerage media took off with it, as per usual.

 

It is not "highly debateable" in psychology that there are social determining factors for biology. Period. I'd ask you for a source for your claim, but you will never give it, and you still haven't answered the question I've asked you twice. No more one-sided exchanges.