BMW Ends ICE Production in Germany! Mercedes?

Discussion in 'Science' started by WillReadmore, Nov 17, 2023.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I think you're getting desperate here.

    It's far more likely that hybrids are cannibalizing ICE sales.

    It's non-hybrid ICE new car sales that are decreasing (by about 10% in the last 2 years). Hybrids and EVs are the ones growing and at reasonably similar rates.

    And, phev sales are growing very slowly. I'm surprised at that. I know someone with a PHEV. She can commute as an EV (since 45 miles is plenty) with home charging. Yet if she takes a long trip it's like she has an ICE. She buys gas about twice a year.
     
  2. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    The data are with me.

    DETROIT (AP) — America’s automakers have staked their futures on the notion that electric vehicles will dominate sales in the coming years, spurred by buyers determined to reduce carbon emissions and save on fuel.

    But so far, while EV sales are growing, their pace is falling well short of the industry’s ambitious timetable for transitioning away from combustion engines. Instead, buyers are increasingly embracing a quarter-century-old technology whose popularity has been surging: The gas-electric hybrid, which alternates from gas to battery power to maximize efficiency.

    So far in 2023, Americans have bought a record 1 million-plus hybrids — up 76% from the same period last year, according to Edmunds.com. As recently as last year, purchases had fallen below 2021’s total. This year’s figures don’t even include sales of 148,000 plug-in hybrids, which drive a short distance on battery power before a gas-electric system kicks in. . . . .
    More US auto buyers are turning to hybrids as sales of ...
    upload_2024-2-17_21-7-56.png
    AP News
    https://apnews.com › article › hybrids-electric-vehicl...


    Dec 21, 2023 — Analysts say they still think more EVs than hybrids will eventually be sold in the United States. With government help, the industry is moving ...
     
  3. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    What part of "Tesla has made $9 billion from competitor's coffers" did you not understand?

    It's how the government works and it will continue until all Tesla's competitors either die or the industry is radically changed to some kind of reman operation making new parts to repair old vehicles. Either way the traditional new car industry will disappear unless Loper eliminates EPA's ridiculous regulatory control of CO2.

    The basic fundamental idiocy of making vehicle makers sell vehicles that suck and the vast majority of people don't want AND preventing them from selling superior vehicles that most people love simply can't, and won't, work out well.
     
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I think that more or less coincides with what I've posted.

    There ARE a lot of EV companies going out of business. Here's a youtube discussing what is happening in China, which is probably leading in number of failures. Betting my dollars on an individual EV manufacturer is not something I'd want to do - especially in China. But, the winners are creating some seriously good EVs.

     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen any analyst suggest that this is a significant cause for US legacy manufacturers to fail so horribly.

    I've seen plenty of other possible factors - not enough batteries, not enough computer chips, high manufacturing costs, uncompetitive designs, etc., etc.

    Maybe those aren't the right reasons, but I've seen these identified and haven't seen your suggestion identified.


    Please cite evidence of this being the primary problem that confounds legacy manufacturers from building EVs that turn a profit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2024
  6. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Simple. EVs are lousy compared to ICE.

    Why would anybody buy a Ford Lightning when there are cheaper F150s, F250s, F350s up to maybe F750s that are better, more useful vehicles on the same lot?

    Why would anyone buy an EV Mustang when a better, cheaper, more useful, more fun, regular Mustang right next to it?

    How can you sell that EV junk in those circumstances?

    They've even tried to separate their dealers into traditional and EV dealers. Their dealers aren't that stupid and don't want to go complete EV.

    And then, on top of that, the government is taking money from them and giving it to Tesla, supposedly to incentivize Ford to sell EVs. Which would require raising prices on the vehicles people actually want to pay the penalties to Tesla.

    It's the inherent idiocy of government run economies. Always has been.
     
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  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I asked for a cite on a specific question - the claim you made about that $9B preventing legacy manufacturers from building EVs.


    Your ideas about dealers are off the mark. Dealers make a significant percent of their income on markups and maintenance.

    But, EVs can be bought for MSRP on line and they don't require the maintenance that ICE vehicles require. Dealers can not afford to sell EVs. And, laws in pretty much all states prevent corporations from selling direct to customers - like Tesla and others do.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2024
  8. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    I don't need a cite. I work in the business.

    You don't and it shows.
     
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  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I do believe you can't cite what you say.
     
  10. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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  11. Base

    Base Newly Registered

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  12. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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  14. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Yeah! Like Biden's ban on ICE!

    Oh, wait.

    That didn't involve a law.
     
  15. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    They're your allies.
     
  16. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nobody in Germany wants EV's.
    E-Car Sales Stall In Germany…Trend Shows Country Will Fall Far Short Of 2030 Target
    By P Gosselin on 25. February 2024

    High cost, inconvenience, low range and battery issues continue to plague e-vehicles in Germany. Consumers not opting for e-cars.

    Currently sales of electric vehicles in Germany have stalled and the country is not even anywhere close to being on the sales trajectory to reach its 15 million vehicles target by 2030. Currently just over 1 million of the 48 million cars on the road are e-cars. Consumers remain skeptical and do not accept e-vehicles as a real alternative to their reliable internal combustion engine cars.

    Dr. Olaf Zinke reported at Agrarheute.de 3 reasons that make e-vehicles unattractive for consumers.

    No. 1: Price, used car value

    Buying a new e-car in Germany means having to shell out between 30,000 to 50,000 euros. “Models in the upper price segment often cost between 80,000 and 100,000 euros, say the experts at the price comparison portal Verivox.

    No. 2: Range

    Most e-cars need to be recharged every about every 200 km or so, far below the range typically suggested by manufacturers. And as the battery ages, performance declines.

    Moreover, Germany’s charging infrastructure still has a long way to go and and so charging can be a real challenge at times. Many homeowners don’t have a charging wall box, and city apartment dwellers often lack parking places with the possibility of charging. This makes e-cars inconvenient to own.

    No. 3: low demand for used e-cars

    “At the same time, used e-cars are almost unsaleable. Who would buy a used e-car when they can have a petrol car that will serve them well for many years for less money?” reports Zinke.

    A regular, used internal combustion engine car is more reliable, quick to refuel and will travel many hundreds of kilometers for much less money.
     
  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This is rife with total bunk.

    A Tesla 3 in Germany costs 43k Euros and gets 550km per full charge. That is a price point that is competitive with Toyota Corolla in Germany, except a Corolla is not a comparable car.

    Being able to charge at home is a benefit. You can't "charge" a petrol car at home.


    I don't know what these "analysts" did, but it sure doesn't represent EVs available in Germany very well.
     
  18. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    And yet the Germans aren't buying. What do they know that you don't? And your faith in Tesla's claimed range is touching. On a personal note, I'd much rather have a Corolla than a Tesla.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2024
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  19. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Sure you can. Just put a tank in the yard and have someone come around and fill it regularly. Lots of us backwoods rubes do it.
     
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  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    As you well know, I'm perfectly fine with you driving a Corolla.

    Right now, I'm driving a Toyota Rav4 hybrid. My daughter and son in law drive a Corolla.

    Before, everyone said range was a big deal. Now, you want to downplay the evident progress.

    I'm not so sure you're being honest about your evaluation.
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You can not do that in cities - where the majority of Americans live.
     
  22. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    That sucks for you.
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    What percent choose to live like you do?
     
  24. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    The percent that works to keep you alive.
     
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  25. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    There is no "evident progress." Range remains an EV weakness.
    Meanwhile, the EV party is winding down.
    US to soften tailpipe rules, slow EV transition through 2030
    upload_2024-2-27_22-23-40.png
    Reuters
    https://www.reuters.com › business › autos-transportation

    Feb 18, 2024 — Under the initial EPA proposal covering 2027-2032, automakers were expected to aim for EVs to constitute 60% of their new vehicle production by ...
     
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