Can a Christian lose their salvation? Or, are there former Christians?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Quantrill, Sep 30, 2011.

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  1. Anobsitar

    Anobsitar Banned

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    The creed I love most is the Athanasian creed. It ends with the sentence: "This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved." The catholic belief doesn't say that anyone comes to hell if he is a non-christian or if he is a christian. It says "And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire."

    What about the idea not to read any longer in the bible and to ask always a member of your community to help you if you like to read - as if you woud be blind? ... What about ... to learn to trust in other people although they are making mistakes like everyone is making mistakes? What about to accept something what someone else is saying to you? To rotate always only in the own thoughts in an egocentristic way is a painful thing - a hell. You are not god. You don't have to decide who is going to hell or not. What about to leave your own personal hell and to go the light way from frustration into hope? Hopefully everyone is reaching heaven.

    http://youtu.be/o22eIJDtKho
     
  2. Anobsitar

    Anobsitar Banned

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    a^2+b^2=c^2

    This formula is about 6000 years old. Without this formula a technical civilization would be impossible. We are associating this formula with Phythagoras, who brought it in a form so everyone is able to use it, although the right use is not a very easy thing. I hope I will meet Phythagoras in heaven one day.

    http://youtu.be/BXI-e8p1Adc
     
  3. Nosferax

    Nosferax Banned

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    Tarnish your character???
    What character???

    And this thread isn't about you so move on please.
     
  4. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It specifically says "those who have fallen" after being believers. If one goes from belief to unbelief (and that is allowing for that very BROAD reading of what is the min. requirement for salvation) then one LOSES SALVATION.

    The reason I say that this is ridiculous is because the PREPONDERANCE of evidence is that one can feel confident in his/her salvation as long as one daily takes up the cross and follows Jesus, but failing to do that for any number of reasons and in any number of ways, that person is in jeopardy of being "cut off."

    Thread thread asks can a Christian lose their salvation. Biblically, the answer is YES.
     
  5. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes there is--I have been giving all kinds of scripture that shows you can be "cut off" after having been "grafted in."
     
  6. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What happens to the severely mentally disabled who can't "come to Christ?"
     
  7. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And people DAILY do such things! No one is a perfect servant except Jesus! We are unfaithful when we do not love one another as Jesus loves us. When we eat or drink to excess, we abuse the temple of our body and are unfaithful. When we fail to feed or clothe or shelter those in need, we are unfaithful. CONSTANTLY we fall away from faith in concupiscence. That is why we need to CONSTANTLY seek His mercy. This obedience/disobedience is not a one time event. Jesus' salvation by his death on the cross happened once, but our accepting of that salvation is a moment to moment PROCESS until the day we die and we are actually saved--where Christ's death is actually applied. I AM saved (by Christ's death), I AM BEING saved (by Christ's merciful acceptance of my repeated calling upon Him), and I WILL BE saved (when I finish this earthly life and am deemed to have been a good and faithful servant).



    The seeds that fall on stoney ground. Jesus himself explains it in the gospels.
     
  8. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You say you only take what the Bible says--but the bible itself did not sprout out of the ground red-lettered and leather bound, nor did it fall from the hand of God in heaven gold-leafed and annotated.

    Your Bible is the product of men--CATHOLIC men--who discerned via the Holy Spirit that which is true to the teachings of Jesus. There are many apocryphal texts that are contemporary to the books of the Bible, but that are not Holy Scriptures--WHY? Because you take the authority given to some specific men as given by God whether you want to admit it or not. If the KJV is your Bible, then EVERY BOOK in that anthology was decided to be inspired scripture from Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. Period.

    You DON'T only acknowledge the authority of the Bible. In acknowledging the authority of the Bible, you acknowledge the authority of the Catholic Church.
     
  9. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    And I have explained those Scriptures, you and others use to show you can lose your salvation, that they do not say any such thing.

    The one you are alluding to now comes from Rom 11, I believe. There it is not talking about individual salvation. Its talking about salvation being offered to Israel, or to the Gentiles.

    When God turns again to Israel, as the people in whom salvation is found, and turns away from offering it to the Gentiles, that does not mean that all those Gentiles who have been saved are now lost. They remain saved, though salvation is now to be found in Israel.

    Quantrill
     
  10. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    That is God's decision as it must be based on His knowledge of election.

    Quantrill
     
  11. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So they don't have to accept Jesus, or...are all severely disabled people (*)(*)(*)(*)ed?

    You are trying to skirt your prior assertions with that answer you gave.
     
  12. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    The Bible is the product of God giving men what to write by inspiration. Men of God in turn recognized these writings as of God. The Old Testament was decided by Jewish men. The New, by the Church.

    I use the KJV, yes. The Canon was definitely decided on by those early Church leaders and Christians.

    I have no problem acknowledging the authority of the Catholic Church as far as being a true Church of Christ. Her authority comes into question in many areas the farther she gets away from the Scriptures. I see Protestant churches the same.

    I am not anti-Catholic, but Catholicism in its doctrine has really strayed. As are many Protestants at this time also, straying.

    Quantrill
     
  13. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    I am not skirting anything. The mentally disabled come under Gods decision based on His election.

    Why is that 'skirting'?

    Quantrill
     
  14. DBM aka FDS

    DBM aka FDS Well-Known Member

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    LOST FOR ETERNITY!!!

    Dude/dudette - that is a flippin long time!!!
     
  15. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    Indeed it is. Incomprehensible. With no end.

    Quantrill
     
  16. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So it's all or nothing? No. He says he hopes to save "some" of his Jewish brethren, so the reference to the Gentiles is plural (as that is his audience), but the instruction is for the individuals. It's not ALL gentiles will be cut off--the "you" is both plural and singular.

    Romans 12:1 proves this. It refers to individual's "bodies."
     
  17. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    I don't know about all or nothing. But what Paul is addressing in Rom. 11 is the contrast between Israel and Gentiles.

    Salvation was to Israel. Israel rejected God and Christ. God turns to the Gentiles. The Gentiles are grafted in that root of salvation found in the Abrahamic covenant.

    Some Gentiles boasted of their being chosen by God, as Israel was now cast away. Paul warned them, that they, Gentiles, could be replaced again by Israel just as easy. And will one day. ( Rom.11:13-24)

    Rom.11:25 " For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happpened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. "

    Romans 12 does not prove anything as Paul is now dealing with the Church and the believers. See Rom.12:4-5.

    Quantrill
     
  18. Anobsitar

    Anobsitar Banned

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    Everything all around your eyes - and more than you are able to see and to know - is a "product" of god. Cosmos as well as chaos. But on the other hand: Who calls his own children "product" and the words a father is speaking to this children "product"? What about if the product-god and/or the marketing-god is a wrong god?

    http://youtu.be/ODCU_UA-Zcw
     
  19. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because it doesn't fit your thesis. If mentally disabled persons can be saved based on election without accepting Jesus, then ANYONE can. And acceptance or rejection are moot.

    The logical implication of your statement that one MUST accept Jesus and after accepting CANNOT renounce salvation, BUT "some people" are not subject to that rule, then you destroy your whole claim. EVERYTHING is entirely deterministic, and there really is no free will. You claimed there WAS free will. Your logic is not consistent.
     
  20. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not ALL of Israel--Paul is the epitome of that. INDIVIDUALS did come to Christ out of Israel.
    That doesn't limit the meaning to only all gentiles, rather than individual Gentiles. It is both.



    You can't compartmentalize the Bible--let alone a single book in the Bible. Paul didn't start a new chapter in Romans--it is a letter of instruction. Paul was talking about the church and believers in 11 too! It's ONE LETTER, not a collection of essays in a book.
     
  21. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    I have never claimed there was free will. I have said several times that I don't see man as having free will. I do see man as having a will.

    As indicated before, that unless God opens the eyes of the individual then they will not believe. I gave the example of Matt.16 and Ehp. 2. Faith is a gift.

    This faith is not the 'will'. It is belief. They now believe because God has opened their eyes. Because they believe, then they turn to Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

    You give an example of a mentally disabled individual. Well, that must be left to God to know, as, due to the individual in questions condition, we cannot know. God may well open the eyes of many of these. But then you won't know because of their condition.

    Quantrill
     
  22. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    But individuals is not the subject here. Its Israel in contrast to Gentiles.

    Actually we are told to 'rightly divide the Word', arn't we?

    And Romans chapters 9-11 deal with Israel.

    Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh. Who are Israelites;...

    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is,that they might be saved.

    Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

    Quantrill
     
  23. DBM aka FDS

    DBM aka FDS Well-Known Member

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    So... I'm cool because I've been saved?
     
  24. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh, WOW...crazy irony right there!

    ...and so you think that means you can chop it up to fit your theology? Nope--that's not what Timothy states.
     
  25. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    I don't know if your saved. Ive given what I believe is the way to salvation. Belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. And then turning to Him as your Lord and Saviour.

    You should be able to answer your own questions.

    Quantrill
     
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