Can a Christian lose their salvation? Or, are there former Christians?

I say no to both questions, based on the Scripture. A Christian cannot lose their salvation, thus it is impossible to become a 'former Christian. I have given Scripture to prove this. Such as Ehp. 2:8 and Matt. 16:13-20 and 1John 2:19

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out,that they might be made manifest that they were no all of us."

If one tells me they used to be a Christian, but are not now, then unless you show in Scripture where and how you lost it, then your experience does not trump the Word of God. I will trust God's Word over your experience.

Quantrill

 

I have heard it said by an Atheist Catholic that Catholicism is the stickiest religion known to man. There is no escape clause. Even if you were to go and join the Taliban, you would merely become a bad Catholic, but still a Catholic!

 

Quantrill

The Bible strongly supports both views, but it often comes down to how certain passages are interpreted. You have a different take, you said, on passages such as Hebrews 6:4-6. I believe the plain meaning to be clear that no sacrifice remains for those who fall away and I'm also using common sense that such a warning would not be given unless it was needed. But let's look at some of the passages you give.


Ephesians 2:8
New King James Version (NKJV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

I've already heard your argument that if faith is a gift, then salvation was never our doing to begin with. This is very redolant of the Calvinist notion of Irresistable Grace, that God elects some to salvation and they infallibly choose a path of redemption. Free will, they insist, has never been violated, but the result is to the uttermost intransigent. Calvinism has the object of salvation completely impassive. They didn't merit salvation, they didn't accomplish it, they didn't choose it of their own volition, therefore they can never lose it. I'll be circling back to that.

Matthew 16 NKJV
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.”
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Nobody on either side of this issue disagrees that nobody is saved except for an initial act of grace by the Holy Spirit, an extraordinary revelation that we cannot come to ourselves. But in the aforementioned parable of the sower, when the seed is sown it sometimes takes root and it sometimes doesn't because at no point does God violate free will. God want's to be chosen over any alternative with absolutely no cohersion, a lesson driven home at the Garden of Eden. You say that because faith is a gift from God, it cannot be lost because of the frailty of man. I say that freewill at the beginning of the salvation transaction necessarily implies free will after the transaction as well unless it can be demonstrated that God, out of character, decides to override free will.

1Jn 2 NKJV
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

And here is the familiar argument that anyone appearing to have lost their salvation never had it to begin with. But a better way to understand this is in light of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares which teaches us the sad reality that tares will grow up with the wheat in reference to mixed families of believers and unbelievers. The tares don't receive judgement because they might become wheat and to cut people off who are potential converts before they can convert would be wrong. It is therefore an act of mercy that tares are spared until the great harvest.

Which brings us back to Calvinism. Whereas the Calvinist sees divine and sovereign intervention at every step of salvation under the notion that God's will cannot be thwarted, I see the free, unhindered volition of man at every step of salvation, to the very end. Man's decisions do not thwart the will of God because it has always been God's will that man makes his decision uncohersed. Thus predestination becomes God's plan for every person to be saved, but not an impetus for overriding the free will of man in the process. Because God woos man and does not dragoon him into heaven, man retains the right and the ability to forfeit such a gift at any time as well. This is the only consistant position that can be sustained in an argument.

But woe to the man who forsakes such a wonderful gift!

 

"former christians' simply become better people. They regain their ability to think for themselves and are not longer sheeple.

 

This idea is the kind of convenient view that some use to delete ambiguity that challenges deeply held beliefs.
As a former Christian, I know there are former Christians.
I had faith. I lost it.
In fact, there was a great deal of pain involved in the transition because I had a hard time reconciling that God had allowed me to lose my faith-- a bizarre, contradictory thought that would occur from time to time.

It's pretty insulting when people throw out the whole "Anybody who doesn't stay Christian never really had faith anyway" argument. Just like the whole "Atheists know there's a God. They just don't feel like following His rules."
Is it so important to you that you reconcile rather minor implications about faith in your religion that you must insult others by denying their sincerity?
I'm not sure how you think that honors your God. If you actually thought it through all the way, applied it to real people rather than scripture, I think you'd realize it's a rather self-interested rationalization you're making.

Isn't there something in mainstream Christianity about empathy and love over written words. Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to be more a mysterious personal insight than a devotion to black and white words even as they don't fit the grayness of life?

You're not doing a whole lot to help your cause there.

 

Heya Javablack,

I do agree it's insulting to say that anyone who lost their salvation never had it to begin with, as if you couldn't make a rational decision for faith and an equally rational decision to reject it. It is very possible, in my view, that your decision is intransigent.

I do, however, hold out hope that because God, in his mercy, has kept us from knowing the future, you might be mistaken and that your departure from faith will one day be seen as a mere hiatus.

St. Augustine (my patron saint) was raised by a godly mother, but in his youth he became an atheist and rejected his upbringing. But his mother never ceased praying for him and Augustine found one day that the faith he thought he was so thoroughly over was still there and he embraced it once again, his conversion so much more profound than anything he had previously known that he became a priest, then a bishop, and one of the Church's greatest contributors to the body of theology.

Neither of us know your future. Sometimes our hearts are like rocks, but water has a myterious way of seeping into the most invisible cracks in rocks and then freezing causing the rock to break up from the inside out. Equally mysterious is the grace the Holy Spirit works in our lives.

 

"Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame."

 

It really is a big giant IF. That's why there is so much division on this issue.

 

I don't see how the Bible can support both views. The Bible can be used to support both, but only one can be correct.

I don't see in Heb. 6 where it speaks of no sacrifice remains. So I won't comment on it until I understand which verses your speaking of. I know there are passages here that seem to say you can lose your salvation, but they don't.

I don't think you presented any argument against Eph.2:8 or Mattl 16, other than say you disagree with it.

I will get back with the others.

Quantrill

 

Considering the alternative, why would anyone want to give up their Christianity?

People who claim to have been Christians but are no longer really don't understand what being a Christian is. You can get fed up with your religion, your church, the people in your church, but how can you get fed up with being a child of the King? Many people who claim they were once Christians fit into the category of being disappointed with other Christians or some other aspect of the religion. Ghandi once said:

“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi

I have to agree with him. Many who claim to be Christian have misunderstood God's word, have expanded it to suit their ideas and sometimes have totally done the opposite of what Jesus would have them do.

 

You just stop believing in god.

 

Concerning the parables in Matt.13. These are parables concerning the 'mysteries of the Kingdom' of Heaven. This is not equated with the Church of Christ, though the Church is in that Kingdom. The Kingdom of Heaven is that Kingdom God promised to Israel in the Old Testament where the Messiah would rule and Israel be the head of the nations.

But, Israel rejected her King. Thus the Kingdom is now put on hold in its appearnace as described. Instead the Kingdom takes on a mystery form. Thus the statement by Christ in Matt. 13:11 "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

This mystery form of the Kingdom of Heaven, with the King now at the right hand of God in Heaven, is all of what is called Christendom or Christianity on this earth. And within this you have much that is professed to be 'Christian', but is not. But within this you have those who are Christians, born-again.

These parables speak to that whole kingdom of God in a mystery form. And so, the parable of the Sower, speaks to different ground to which the word of the kingdom goes out to. The good ground is the belilevers. The other ground are those on whom the seed fell but there was nothing there, or it was taken and or choked out. The good ground is representative of the believer only. All others are in the kingdom of heaven, but not the Church. They are not saved. So they don't lose it.

Remember also in the tares of the wheat, the tares never did become wheat. But, they were in the kingdom of heaven. And God destroyed them in the end. They had no salvation to lose.

I don't say faith cannot be lost because of the fraility of man. I say faith was not the believers to lose. It is a gift of God. I see no where God removes it from the believer.

Quantrill

 

I do not necessarily say you were never a Christian. What I do say is there are no former Christians. This actually leaves two options opened. You either were never a Christian, or you still are.

If God opened you eyes and you accepted and believed Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, not just said it, but believed it, then you were born-again.

Now, if you were born again, then you cannot lose your salvation. Your eternal destiny is secured. But, if you have turned away from God and are denying you believe, then your eternal destiny is still secured, but you will come under the judgement of God. Because you are his. Im not saying you are or not. Im saying this is how God will deal with His people who turn from Him. He will not take away their salvation, but they will recieve discipline from God, to bring them back. And if there is no coming back for them in this life, then God will take them home.

I am not trying to insult you or pretend I know your circumstance. But this is my understanding of Scripture.

Quantrill

 

But earlier you said you were a literalist. You said there was no interpretation. The words in the Bible meant exactly what they said. Have you changed your mind?

 

An example of having been 'sown with an imperishable seed' is this story:

Paul told his followers concerning the man who did evil back then:

1 Corinthians 5:5: Ampl
"You are to deliver this man over to Satan for physical discipline [to destroy carnal lusts which prompted him to incest], that [his] spirit may [yet] be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

So behavior didnt totally destroy the seed sown is this particular early Christian.

However, I (personally) believe in 'spiritual suicide,' as in 'consciously' denying the Holy Spirit (blasphemy being the only unpardonable sin) as a fallen once confessed Believer in the words of Christ who subsequently denies Him and His work on the cross.

Or, as a Christian, earnestly voting for Obama in 2008, but then voting for him again in 2012..."Unpardonable!' (to whom it may concern )

However:

Hebrews 6:4-6:
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

You can't undo the sacrament of baptism so in that way you're always a Christian after being baptized.

 

We must go back to Hebrew 3 first to get the full picture of Heb.6:4-6. Here we are told of the Israelites in the wilderness with God watching and caring over them. Israel here is a picture of a saved nation. They have already come under the blood at the passover, and have been baptized in the Sea unto Moses. They are a picture of a saved people.

But, yet, they grumbled and griped and complained just like the people of God always do. And God says, Heb. 3:7-11

" Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generartion, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, bretheren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. "

These are believers, and they can depart from the living God. And this is the same condition described in Heb. 6:4-6 that could occur to believers today. " For it is impossible for those who were once enlilghtened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to reknew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So, what does it mean? In Ex. 17:6 Moses was required to smite the Rock so that water came out. We learn later in 1Cor.10:4 that that Rock was Christ. Then later in Numbers, due to the complaining of the people again, Moses is told by God to speak to the Rock for water to come out. Nu.20:10-11. Instead, because Moses was angry, he smote the Rock again. This displeased God, yet He gave water from it anyway. Moses was guilty of crucifying afresh the Son of God. The smiting of the rock the first time spoke to Christ's crucifixtion. The speaking to the rock the second time spoke to the risen Christ and you speak to Him. No need to crucify Him again.

But, Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land. Moses prayed to God to let him enter. In other words, Moses sought repentance. But God would not allow him to repent. So did Moses go to heaven? Of course. But he didn't get to go into the promised land. God did not allow him to repent.

So, loss of repentance for the believer doesn't mean your going to hell and lost your salvation. It means however something is lost in your walk here as a believer. And it should be a serious warning.

Quantrill

 

Here is a short study to help in understanding the distinction between "back sliding" and "falling away". As noted in scripture, "falling away" is a phrase that is used to indicate having passed that point of no return.
http://www.scriptureseeds.org/Apostate/Backslidden.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

 

Going back to the Book of Hebrews, which was written specifically to the Jewish believers of the time:

The big difference between OT followers & NT believers, is that in the OT the Holy Spirit came 'upon' ppl or 'over shadowed' ppl; whereas, in the NT, the Holy Spirit dwells 'within' ppl...big difference! OT followers were under the letter of the Law and were 'sin conscious;' whereas, NT believers are under grace and are regenerated (aka reborn, or born again).

 

I don't agree. Falling away is serious, but not to loss of salvation.

Heb.6:8-9 " For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth throns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

Note it says 'nigh unto cursing'. Almost. But not quite. And the burning of the brush is not to be equated with hell. It is judgement of God however to rid that which is not wanted by God from them. Much like in the believers go before the judgement seat of Christ, all our bad works and sins unconfessed, will be destroyed by fire so that all which remains is that which we did which glorified God on this earth. 1Cor.3:12-15 "Yet so as by fire"

Quantrill

 

what about the words of jesus (per se as within the babble)?


matt 16:

20Then did he charge his disciples that they may say to no one that he is Jesus the Christ.

21From that time began Jesus to shew to his disciples that it is necessary for him to go away to Jerusalem, and to suffer many things from the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be put to death, and the third day to rise.

22And having taken him aside, Peter began to rebuke him, saying, `Be kind to thyself, sir; this shall not be to thee;'

2 3and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'

24Then said Jesus to his disciples, `If any one doth will to come after me, let him disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me,

25for whoever may will to save his life, shall lose it, and whoever may lose his life for my sake shall find it,

26for what is a man profited if he may gain the whole world, but of his life suffer loss? or what shall a man give as an exchange for his life?

27`For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work.

28Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'



that is from one translation

and just in case some need a clearer one

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

 

What about them?

Quantrill

 

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


2 Peter 2
1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,

2and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of,

3and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber.

4For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

5and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,

6and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set [them];

7and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue,

8 for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing.

9The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,

10and chiefly those going behind the flesh in desire of uncleanness, and lordship despising; presumptuous, self-complacent, dignities they are not afraid to speak evil of,

11whereas messengers, in strength and power being greater, do not bear against them before the Lord an evil speaking judgment;

12and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed -- in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil -- in their destruction shall be destroyed,

13about to receive a reward of unrighteousness, pleasures counting the luxury in the day, spots and blemishes, luxuriating in their deceits, feasting with you,

14having eyes full of adultery, and unable to cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having an heart exercised in covetousnesses, children of a curse,

15having forsaken a right way, they did go astray, having followed in the way of Balaam the [son] of Bosor, who a reward of unrighteousness did love,

16and had a rebuke of his own iniquity -- a dumb ass, in man's voice having spoken, did forbid the madness of the prophet.

17These are wells without water, and clouds by a tempest driven, to whom the thick gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept;

18for overswellings of vanity speaking, they do entice in desires of the flesh -- lasciviousnesses, those who had truly escaped from those conducting themselves in error,

19liberty to them promising, themselves being servants of the corruption, for by whom any one hath been overcome, to this one also he hath been brought to servitude,

20for, if having escaped from the pollutions of the world, in the acknowledging of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and by these again being entangled, they have been overcome, become to them hath the last things worse than the first,

21for it were better to them not to have acknowledged the way of the righteousness, than having acknowledged [it], to turn back from the holy command delivered to them,

22and happened to them hath that of the true similitude; `A dog did turn back upon his own vomit,' and, `A sow having bathed herself -- to rolling in mire.'

 

you dont have a clue what you are talking about

that aint about them, that is what your posts show all

 

Jesus was speaking to 'the spirit' behind the words, not judging Peter as such...Peter yielded at the time to outside influences, doing so with good intentions; however, Jesus discerned the enemy & demonic spirit behind those words, and was speaking directly to 'it'...

Also, FYI, Peter was NOT born again of the Spirit at that point---all that happened during/after Pentecost.