Christian influence in society? Yes. A theocracy? No

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by XXJefferson#51, Sep 17, 2022.

  1. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am of the belief that there are stronger things that we can do almost anywhere that we go regularly........
    We can walk over to walls and consecrate those walls into the Blood of Yeshua......
    and I have seen evidence that this can result in discarnate entities leaving that building.........
    and the Shalom of our Messiah can move into buildings and locations......

    Even the type of music that we play can chase away discarnate entities whose intentions for us may be quite dark.....

    Joe Fischer wrote the book "Hungry Ghosts" based on what he saw and experienced as he researched the Channelling movement....


    https://near-death.com/christian-andreason-nde/

     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You did suggest the analysis was wrong with the division on party lines being the only justification you could point to.
     
  3. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    No I didn't. I didn't say anything about accuracy or analysis. I pointed at how partisan you framed everything and noted that is a major failing of your "democracy". I made a general point about the politicians across the board, and you immediately launched into partisanship.

    It is the vast majority of politicians in all major parties that are fake and corrupt. Trump's ability to pass himself off (wrongly) as a populist straight talker who didn't put up fake rehearsed speech, like a Rubio or Kamala, is what made him win.

    And he or somebody maybe even more dangerous will win again if you don't develop more genuine leadership that listens to the people.
     
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  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]
    Exactly. That is your analysis and as I pointed out it is totally baseless partisan nonsense.

    Let's remember that Trump leads the REPUBLICAN party.

    So, YOU get to own what he does. He wouldn't even have been a candidate except that HE is the one your party wanted back then and HE is the one your party follows today.
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Exactly - your analysis of how I "framed everything", so now that it's cleared up, reread my post.

    And, once again, Trump leads the REPUBLICAN party.

    You can't blame YOUR CHOICE of a corrupt and racist leader on Dems.
     
  6. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    More demonstration of my point. You presume I am Republican because I'm not agreeing with everything you say. I'm more Liberal than most of your Democrats are, and I'm not from the USA. I'm an outside observer who noted how extremely partisan your country has become and you your people (and you are proving to be a prime example) can't see beyond your partisanship.

    I say something generally about politicians and you launch into a partisan screed, and presume I am on the opposite side. It demonstrates my points perfectly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2022
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nothing in the passage states or infers that salvation is through falth alone ... a complete falsehood on your part .. as the decevers are want to do.

    15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.


    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    Not one word about faith .. except for the poor jokers crying Lord Lord -- who don't get in.
     
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    More demonstration of my point. You presume I am Republican because I'm not agreeing with everything you say. I'm not even American. I'm an outside observer who noted how extremely partisan your country has become and you your people (and you are proving to be a prime example) can't see beyond your partisanship.[/QUOTE]
    And, you responded like a good Trump Republican. I wouldn't have thought that someone from outside America would do that.

    The fact that these Republicans are blaming our president for inflation (which is world wide and caused by world wide issues) AND for taking the logical steps government has for fighting inflation, is clear proof of total MAGA/Republican partisanship.

    Then, you blame Dems for losing an election to Trump? Sorry. Dems did not propose Trump. If you don't love Trump you can only blame Republicans.

    Also, please note that the party Trump still leads is attacking our very democracy.

    This is not just a Jan 6 violent insurrection thing. It's also that they are extending their use of gerrymandering to reduce the influence of those they hate. They are making it harder for people to vote by requiring in-person voting and ensuring there are few places to vote - so there are grandmothers and people in wheel chairs standing in line for HOURS if they want to vote. PLUS, if someone offers WATER to someone in line to vote, they have committed a CRIME!! And, they are giving state leadership the right to throw out the ballots if the wrong candidate wins the state balloting for US President.

    Yes - this assault on democracy IS a partisan issue. So is the attempt to blame Biden for conditions we face due to no fault of elected officials. So is the attempt by the Trump led Republicans to blame Biden for the only available solutions to cost of gas and inflation.


    Who do you think would be president if the Jan 6 insurgency had been successful in assassinating our vice president and terminating our election process - leaving Trump with a free hand as still being president to decide what would come next?

    Or, am I just being "too partisan" when I call out Republicans for their clear and continuing assault on America's deepest principles.
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Amen. And, it's clear in the passages cited by Battle, as you point out.

    It's one more time when Jesus states, "...but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
     
  10. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    I don’t agree that you can only blame the Republicans for Trump. Remember that a big reason that Clinton lost is because people didn’t show up to vote. She was so certain she would win, she didn’t even try to campaign in some states where she lost.

    The Democrat party is out of touch with a lot of its voter base. We got a glimpse of its ugly side when the DNC was hacked and emails were published showing that the DNC favoured Clinton over Sanders. In my opinion Trump ran against the wrong candidate in 2016. Bernie wouldn’t have failed to campaign in 2016.

    PS I don’t know what is going on with the quotes
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
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  11. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. That's even more demonstration of my point, which you seem unable to grasp because of your own partisan blinders.

    Also not quite what I wrote. But it fits perfectly with your partisanship. I blame Democrats AND Republicans. Trump trounced the Republican field of candidates because they were all fake and weren't listening to the people. Rubio was the most hilarious case of it, demonstrated when Christie hacked his talking point brain in front of everyone. Trump came along and extended a middle finger to them and mocked them to their faces, and sold himself as sticking up for the actual people, which people were so desperate for that they bought.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats nominated another establishment fake polished politician who doesn't listen to the people, and who even marketed herself with "I'm with her", instead of "she's with us", screwing over Bernie Sanders (who had an unexpected good run; also because he sold himself as speaking for the people), and Trump beat her because, again, he was the hand grenade thrown into the establishment politics.

    You are being amazingly partisan when you take what I actually wrote, which had nothing to do with that, and turn to a tribal screed in response, and then presume I'm in the enemy camp.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
  12. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Indeed Brother Will - a clear case of intentional deception - misrepresenting the teachings of Jesus
     
  13. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect. See this from a previous thread.

     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not incorrect - Show where in the passage salvation is said to be on the sole basis of Faith. Your claim is utter falsehood. The entire Sermon is about works .. as "The will of the Father" .. that which gets one into heaven according to Jesus in the passage. "Only those that do the will of the Father" ... which is given as works .. works .. and more works Judge not lest you be judged .. and you will be Judged .. and on that day .. your free pass will not be accepted..

    For as we read in Scripture Matt 7 “1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

    This false teaching .. "Free Pass" through Judgement .. that is the "Incorrect" - For Brother James tells us in Chapter 2 -- those who believe in "Faith Alone" are foolish.. says it is a worthless doctrine that some early Pauline Christians were following.

    That didn't sit to well with Brother Martin though .. wanted to rip James out of the Bible.. desecrate the Holy book .. just one of the many heresies of this purveyor of False Free Pass Doctrine.
     
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  15. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Note that we have Christians who can't agree on what God wants.

    Note that if God is all powerful then he has the power to make them both know what he wants, but clearly hasn't.

    Why not? And how is it just or fair for him to judge either of them based on faulty understanding he allowed?

    Is God not actually all powerful? Or does God intend the confusion and conflict?
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
  16. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    “The message of Matthew 7:15-23 is a warning about false prophets and you will know false prophets from their actions. The secondary lesson is that deeds (performing miracles or good deeds) won't get you into Heaven, you have to have a relationship (faith) to get into Heaven.“

    Actually the opposite sounds true. If they are doing miracles in the name of Jesus but Jesus never knew them it sounds rather difficult to know who represents Jesus. I can see where a lot of people would have a hard time understanding how a faith healer would be considered faithless.
     
  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Trump is who the Republicans wanted to be president.

    Blaming Dems for not winning an election is just plain silly. In democracy, one doesn't always get one's own preferences.

    The bottom line is that Republicans wanted Trump to lead their party.

    And that has not changed. He STILL leads the Republican party.

    You don't like partisanship, but then you complain that opposition to Trump and Trumpism is partisanship!!
     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This is just plain nonsense.

    Republicans are responsible for choosing Trump as their leader - in the past as well as today.

    Then, you complain about DEMOCRATS not dominating!! Sorry. You can not blame Democrats for Trump.

    Then, you claim I'm being partisan, because I object to the obvious anti-democratic direction that Trump has led America.

    Sorry. I just don't see your analysis as being serious.
     
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, this is not about the issue of whether one has to acknowledge God in a deep and serious way, and that without that there is no possibility of the eternal life Jesus speaks of.

    That is well accepted.

    The issue here is about whether that is sufficient - whether that is the only requirement.

    In Matthew 7, Matthew 25, the story of the rich man, etc., we find Jesus making it clear that ones life must change to be a life lived as God would have you live it. And, without that change, even believers are in trouble.
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think it was made pretty clear by the citations above where Jesus described how one must lead their lives.

    There are a good number of quotes of Jesus where he's very clear. I don't see a possibility of claiming one cares about Christianity, yet ignores what Jesus states on this topic.

    We're really not going to be able to figure out, let alone judge, what the Christian god might be intending.
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't know of any Christian groups who believe that faith isn't an absolute requirement. The question is whether it is sufficient, since Jesus is recorded as stating that faith alone is not sufficient.
    That problem seems to be one of identifying charlatans.
     
  22. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Freedom is God, from whom springs our rights, and in which our equality is rooted. Does that make American freedom evil. Or are those who see it as evil, the evil ones? At some point, people must decide whether they want to live right and in peace, or make war with God. Some think the mention of God is simply a placeholder, to imbue a human concept with a divine sentiment. And thus stir holy devotion to the cause. But either way, devotion to freedom is to capture our affection and bless us proportionately. And while our religions or lack thereof are ours to live....freedom remains the chief cornerstone of that right. Without it, we are finished. So Americans have an obligation to make efforts to live worthy of freedom. Not that our belief or our works grant us the right to be free, but that it is our duty in the maintenance of that great gift. So that whether for practicality or that heaven should smile upon us, we might know and harvest wellness to our souls and that of our nation.
     
  23. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Funny, I can say the same about Americans, who are responsible for choosing Trump as your leader. I can also say that about you making senile Joe Biden your next President. You, a country with many brilliant minds, and this is the best you can do? You can do better.

    Yes, yes we can. There is plenty of blame to go around. Had your Democrat Party not played shenanigans and blocked Bernie Sanders, he had a better chance of beating Trump. And had you not had decades of slick establishment fake politicians, and had more who listened to the people, Trump would never have gotten anywhere close to your Whitehouse.

    No, that's not why. Read my last post. Actually read it. I said in what way you are being partisan, and it isn't your mere distaste for Trump.

    And I see you as a partisan unable to process what an outsider to your country says about your country as a whole, without immediately launching into an insider partisan screed.

    Trump was your President. You Americans put him into office and unleashed him on the world stage. That's not on us in the rest of the world. That's on you. Do better. Try to understand why and how it happened, rather than merely demonizing half of your people, or it WILL happen again, and you will have a share of the blame.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    True. But, Republicans did that. Dems just didn't succeed in defending our democracy.

    And, Biden does support democracy and promotes improvement in our infrastructure, recognizes the value of science based medicine, is interested in education (which is the foundation of the important emerging economic sectors), respects other nations, isn't so stupid as to start a tariff war with China, etc.
    I liked Bernie, too, but I seriously do not believe he could have won the presidency in America with the Republican power behind Trump.
    Just to keep the record straight, I view the MAGA/Republican assault on our democracy an OVERRIDING issue. We are not America without democracy. We and all other first world nations are founded on democracy.
    ??? So, you criticize from the outside and then I'm supposed to ignore where you are totally missing what's going on? And again, democracy is not a "partisan screed".
    I've never suggested those outside the USA are to blame for America unleashing Trump on the world stage. So, that part is really confused.

    I've pointed out that Republicans did that.

    You write off what I have said as "partisan" and then you moan about America not being stronger vs. Trump - which absolutely would require stronger partisan direction???

    You really have to make up your mind.

    I'm fine with you pointing to the MAJOR mistake America made in choosing MAGA Republican direction as led by Trump.

    But, if you want to get into why that happened and what is going on TODAY, you have to stop writing off serious issues as "partisan".
     
  25. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    He sent his servants the Prophets who were cast out and murdered. Then he sent his own Son who was cast out and put to death. Then they cast out and killed his Sons Disciples and other followers. So It isn't so much that God can't convince people. It's that people choose to reject him.

    As for the confusion regarding his doctrines, it probably boils down to people presuming without knowing what is true. Whether this is a sin or how great a sin is something only God can say, I suppose.
    I think the point to all this is that we're supposed to do what's right regardless of whether he is near or far away.
     
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