Christian influence in society? Yes. A theocracy? No

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by XXJefferson#51, Sep 17, 2022.

  1. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but even Protestants believe one’s life must change to be a life lived as God would have you live it. If a life doesn’t change then it’s not a true acceptance of Jesus.

    But is it a requirement? That’s obviously debatable.

    The early church thought works were not required to enter Heaven but determined your reward in Heaven. My opinion is that the church (what became the Catholic church) became corrupted and went down the path of requiring works as a means to power and wealth. That’s why we have this debate.
     
  2. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    And you should ask - does it matter? If I am saved and do good works, does it matter if I believe good works are required or good works are the natural result of being saved?
     
  3. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Assorted deviants and sociopaths always start screaming about 'theocracy' whenever some sort of common sense morality is asked for. Pay no attention to them, they're morons with zero sense and no grasp on realities.
     
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  4. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    I agree to a point.

    However, keep in mind that Trump also thinks and talks in a way that appeals to his base. I suspect that Trump's base represents a large segment of America that failed to mature, and who are still living in Antebellum America where whites were the masters and free to do as they pleased to non-whites & the poor with impunity. Thus I feel that the "great changes" sought by Trump's base were (and still remain) more selfish than altruistic.

    Give Trump a lot of money and he'll become a slave holder. Give Trump a position of leadership and he'll become a dictator. And, as the psychological profile of his base reveals, they will only love him for it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
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  5. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    the trump bases main focus is draining the swamp of our corrupt politicians and MSM lies.
    the only way that can be done is to expose them.
    he has done that, the guv and MSM have acted disgracefully beyond all recognition bordering on nutterville since his election.
    it was not an experiment its the will of the people, just the wrong person to execute that will.
    on that note 'anyone' is better than no one.
    Now we have biden, the dictator that violated the constitutional rights of all medical workers and guv employees by mandating and forcing them to inject a scantly tested substance into their bodies against their will, or lose their jobs. (and the **** doesnt work)

    Biden said, 'If you get vaccinated, you won't get COVID.' Today ...
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com › opinion › bide...

    Jul 21, 2022 — President Joe Biden tested positive for COVID today, the White House announced. The positive test comes several months after Biden received ...

    LIES!
    Its not a vaccine, at best a deterrent with a **** load of side effects.

    People quit the CDC and NIH in droves due to "Bad Science" that they wanted no part of.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
  6. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    All of which was by God's design if God is all powerful and created everything, no? If not, how not?

    Is God's power somehow limited? Could he not just make us all know whatever it is he wants us to know, rather than send human form messengers indistinguishable from humans merely purporting to speak for him?

    Why do all of his failed attempts to communicate come in ways that mere mortals pretending to be him could send communication? Books, stories, human form messengers, etc. A real God would not be so limited, right? So he must do this on purpose? Why?

    Sure. Because God hasn't made them know. He hasn't communicated to them successfully. If he is all powerful then that must be his intent, right? If so, then how can he judge people based on commands he never made them know?

    But different Christians disagree on what is right. And when one defines right as obedience to God rather than simply following empathy and fairness, what is claimed to be right can come to include a very wide and conflicting variety of claims.

    This problem of communication is right up there with the problem of evil I think in tough questions for religions to answer.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
  7. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I think Trump is simply a narcissist and will do good or bad not according to any ideology, but merely according to what appeals to his ego. He lacked the polished politician filter and that appealed to people after decades of it. He lost second time around (to a borderline senile man who also shouldn't be in the Whitehouse) because people saw his true colours.
     
  8. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Understood, but you are ignoring/dismissing peoples free agency and their love of evil as if it had no place in the matter when it is central to it. According to scripture, Lucifer and a third of Gods spiritual offspring rebelled against and made war with God in person and in spite of him being the all powerful God. Would you suggest then that the failure was his, in allowing choice?
    Then again, you probably think this is an exercise in futility, that there is no God, and life is what you/we make of it. And that in the end, even if there is a God, then all things are his, and all his judgments are just, as we all will be where we ought to be because his house is a house of order. And if this is true, then heed should be paid to his warnings during this probationary life.
     
  9. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    That would only come into it if God did make you know and you THEN rejected it, knowing you are doing so. But that's not what we see with well meaning Christians who disagree on what the message is in the first place, right?

    No. My point is that there is no actual meaningful informed choice without the person being informed. You can't disobey orders you don't receive or that you don't understand.

    Yes, but that is beside the point. This isn't about me. It's about God and the Christian believers, both intending to follow God, but differing on what they think that means exactly.

    Except you don't all agree on what those warnings are.
     
  10. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    All true. But what remains or hangs in the balance is the eternal welfare of ones own soul or spirit, rather than either the collective harmony or discord of the masses. Granted that one can further distance oneself from the concept of divinity and the continuity of our spirit by the absence of verifiable authenticity. Still I think that it is self evident to the intellect in the halls of ones own judgment and reflection, that there is something to it...a glimmer or small voice of truth to it. The veracity of which is not attended or made sure with crashing symbols and heavy drums, but with a singularity of worth, in and of itself, like a tuning fork to which one aligns ones instrument for the cause of perfection.

    I know I'm making a lot of a little. But what remains after stripping away all the noise and discord, must be the truth, without which, like the insignificance of conception, none of us would be here. So clearly, it is a bigger deal than the credit we give it from our lofty headiness, traditions, and indoctrinations within this dreamy cult of living.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't know of any statement by Jesus of how much ones life must change - so, I agree with you at least to some extent on that.

    But, in Matthew 25:31 Jesus certainly makes it clear that lack of works will get you hell.
     
  12. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Again, not the point.

    God can exist, and one of these Christians may be 100% correct in their understanding, but that would mean the other is wrong despite being well meaning, doing their best to understand, and thinking that they do. You may be that one who got it right, or you may be that one who got it wrong, or you may both be wrong. The point is that God has the power to make everybody know and understand, but he doesn't make that so, so he must not intend everyone to know, or if he does intend it then he must not be all powerful after all. Can't have it both ways. So that's a real problem for anyone who says he's fairly judging people who don't do what he wants... if they never understood he wants that.

    And yes, that also goes for the believers of non-Christian religions who also think they got it right and you all got it wrong (and maybe they are correct), and it also goes for atheists as well. If we don't know God demands X, then how can we obey? We can't obey orders that are never received.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Amen. While we will never known what any god could possibly be intending, it does seem like any legitimate god would support all of humanity, not just one sect.

    And, that certainly does not appear to be part of the intent of the god described by Christians.
     
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  14. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Neither can you receive an order that you refuse to hear, or arrive at a place you have not set out to go. Considering the extent you go not to believe, and make no effort to believe. It suggests to me that this is the case.

    Granted the world is filled with deceit and ignorance. And perhaps I am part of it. So the solution is to bypass the chaos and go to the source by praying. It is said that a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

    Or do you think that you are greater than God, that you should make no effort, and the labor be all his, as if it were he seeking blessings and understanding from your hands and lips.
     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The question isn't answered by a call for people to believe the way you do.

    And, if I don't, that means I think I'm smarter than God??? Seriously?
     
  16. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    You may say that about me, but what about your fellow Christians who disagree with you on doctrine? Are they refusing to hear or are they simply wrong despite making every effort to hear?

    What about the devout Jew and Muslim and Hindu? Are they all refusing to hear despite telling us that they have dedicated their life to such hearing?

    And what are they all to think of you? Are you refusing to hear the "truth" that they hear and are certain is so clearly what God actually wants from you?

    But the people who do so come up with so many different and conflicting answers. It doesn't have to be like that if God is actually all powerful. So he must intend that, right?

    Can Allah or Vishnu truly rightly judge you on following their commands if you never got or understood these commands or never believed these Gods to be real?
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
  17. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    Biden is hardly a "dictator"...LOL

    However, the Covid hoax was indeed Biden's biggest blunder. But that's because he believes viruses to be real & dangerous, and that vaccines are both safe and effective. Politicians do lie all the time, but I honestly don't believe he intentionally lied about Covid or about vaccinations, PPE's, and so on. I believe that he genuinely believed what he was telling the public (which I assume he was told to say).

    Biden's not a doctor, a scientist, or lab tech. Unless he personally researched the available material concerning the pseudo-science of virology & vaccines (which he does not look like he is the kind of person who does), he will be like most Americans who are clueless about this subject and will buy the CDC, NIH, and WHO's pandemic narrative.

    And don't forget. Trump also not only pushed the public to get vaccinated, but wanted to take all the credit for rolling out early vaccinations (narcissist that he is).
     
  18. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Donor

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    I can't argue with that, other than to mention that Trump won the first time only thanks to the electoral college. So he lost the popular vote twice.
     
  19. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    I'm not telling you who is God or what he wants. I'm saying that if you want to know what God wants, you should ask him and avoid the gossip, rumors, opinions, personal interpretations, and general chaos of mankind on the matter.

    If you intend to set aside your life and address the matter, then at least know what you are talking about. And the surest way to secure that is to seek out this God directly thru prayer, and avoid the babel of the world. Otherwise, ignore it all and go to your life.
     
  20. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    I said to ask God rather than to ask me or the world. How is that exalting myself?
     
  21. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    That's all fine, but doesn't address the question I asked or anything else I wrote, so why quote me?
     
  22. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Talk about pearl clutching hysterics! Whatever we do we’ll be misjudged by our critics! We’ll be hated, bludgeoned, bullied, dehumanized, abused…..oh the humanity! We are such VICTIMS!

    We will hear dire warnings from the left about a nefarious plot by Christian conservatives”…..well actually you left this bit out of your attempt to play the victim card. The piece goes on about a "nefarious plot": “They’re trying to impose a theocracy! They are trying to create an America in their own image! And they are not afraid to call for the shedding of blood!”
    Unfortunately, there are some Christian groups calling for this very thing (although, to be clear, when they talk about the possibility of bloodshed, they mean that their blood might be shed as martyrs for the cause). They are espousing an unhealthy Christian nationalism that merges Christian identity with national identity and wraps the Gospel in the American flag. And the most extreme among them would even welcome a theocratic kingdom on earth where religious leaders dictate how the society is governed.
    Some are political leaders, some are media leaders, and some are ministry leaders. In all cases, I reject their goals, I reject their methods, and I reject their rhetoric. In fact, this is one reason why I have distanced myself from the term “Christian nationalism.”

    Maybe that is the “dire warning” the left is referring to and maybe you should be worried about that faction of the religious right as well, unless of course you are a Dominion member.
     
  23. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    And you get to judge others as “deviants and sociopaths” by what authority?
     
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  24. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    And you ARE a “doctor, scientist or lab tech” who “personally researched the available material”?
     
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  25. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    BTW 78% of Evangelicals think the US should be a Christian nation, that's a lot of Christian nationalists.
     

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