Confederate flag is still being used

Interesting in that it as a self-proclaimed Union man, he was pretty Confederatee:

"Despite his early opposition to secession, Baldwin supported his state in the Civil War. He served as colonel of the 52nd Virginia Infantry until prevented by illness. He then represented Virginia in the Confederate Congress. Between sessions, Baldwin acted as colonel of a regiment of Augusta Reserves." Valley of the Shadow: John B. Baldwin


Also, his (after the war) account has been disputed by others, and many historians find his testimony suspect.

 

Confederatee? LOL ...... I suppose the same could be said about Lee and many others.

Take Baldwin's testimony any way you like. Those that disputed him weren't in the room with him and Lincoln.

In any case, it is yet another perspective on Lincoln's decision-making, though it's not needed. The Official Records, along with the Congressional record and other sources well illustrate the situation regarding Sumter. Baldwin's testimony is not needed as a linchpin. It is only illustrative to the situation as Virginia saw it. Beyond that, Lincoln's actions are without question, regardless of motivation.

 

I would certainly disagree. The flag is a relic that represent much oppression, suffering, atrocity and death. Some are proud of it, but many have reason to reject it. We know the American "Confederacy" was about (slavery, for the most part) and that is what their symbols are inextricably associate with.

Yes, that IS something we still see in America today; but it is fading a bit more with each generation. I think that is a good thing. I have spent some time observing the NASCAR crowd (for example) and at certain events I've observed for about 30 years, the display of that Confederate symbol has diminished greatly. And I surely thank God for that. I used to be very bothered by the wanton display of the Confederate Flag... but I see time slowly but surely dissolving people's connection/allegiance to what I think is no less offensive than a Nazi Swastika. And I'm not the only American who sees it in that type of light.

As I've said before, it is a symbol that belongs only in museums and history books. After all, I don't want ANYONE living to day to remain unaware or forget why that was a time in America we must NEVER revisit upon humanity.

 

BS, it represents the valorous struggle of a people and their beliefs. They fought hard, sacrificed much. If a few different choices were made, there would be 2 nations right now. Yes, I think slavery is a bad thing, but slavery would have died out soon anyway, regardless of the outcome of the war, like it has in all nations, except the ones infested by Muslim extremists. Slavery was not the only issue being fought over. No, I'm not from the South, I'm from Maine. Joshua Chamberlain was one of my childhood heroes, and still is. But the men they fought against on little round top and countless other battlefields are every bit as deserving of honor and remembrance as the Union soldiers.

 

No. It isn't BS. The Confederate Flag represents exactly what it did historically. And to me, that among other things, is a nation that should have been buried. A horrible, immoral, brutal and rebellious nation that has left us a legacy of woe to this very day.

No, you or others might see it all through more flattering mental filters... but the "South" (as in "CSA") is really nothing to proud of or endeared to.

Many Americans today see it exactly the way I do; and I'm not being nearly as critical as many others surely are.

 

If Britain had won the revolutionary war, they probably would remember us in the same way. History has a way of demonizing the losers. The narrative of everything the South stood for has been painted in a bad light to the masses, far more than is deserved. The Roman Empire extensively used slaves, as did Egyptians, Vikings , Greeks, Aztecs, etc etc etc. pretty much every culture on earth has used slaves at some point in their history. Are we just going to flush all symbolism of these people down the toilet too? You cannot just paint these cultures and conflicts in black and white. In all of them there was much more going on when you dig a little deeper.

 

You have no way of knowing that.

 

Confederate Flag/Swastika = Items that should be relegated to 'museums' and 'history' books.

To many, both represent oppression, suffering and death... and without particularly 'demonizing' things, that is a reasonable view to take.

 

I agree with you to a point. If they are used to focus on the negative aspects of what those flags represented, such as the stars and bars in a KKK meeting or whatever, then yeah, that's pretty offensive. If that same flag is used as a symbol of resisting a tyrannical government, or in remembrance of ones ancestors and what they fought for, then displaying them outside of museums is fine. If, say, the confederate flag was flown at a state capital building, I would see it is a salute to the men that fought and died in that state during the civil war, and helped make that state what it is today. I agree that it seems to be a lot harder to justify the flying of a swastika, but I don't think the confederate flag should be seen in that much of a negative light.

 

Germany was smart enough to essentially RID themselves of the notion of their people embracing symbols of the 3rd Reich; for they surely represented oppression, suffering, death/genocide... the symbols of the CSA rank right up there with similar acts as Hitler's.

There will never be any getting around that in the hearts of most Americans. I'm all for getting a proper view of what went down in the Old South... but I don't see where it is anything that Americans should be endeared to or proud of.

I hope the meaning and frequency of display of the Confederate Flag continues to diminish from generation to generation. I want the 'evils' to be remembered however, for all the proper reasons. "Never Again!", seems to fit the way I feel about the Confederacy.

 

You're right about history demonizing losers after all it is the victors that write the history. Slavery was a way of life throughout the world and most countries practiced it in one form or another until 1700. Only a handful of countries or kingdoms abolished slavery until then, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Lithuania and some city states. In the rest of the world the degree slavery was practiced varied greatly, but as stated, only in a handful of countries was it illegal prior to 1700. Slavery was the norm for that time in history.

Another handful of countries and some of our colonies abolished slavery between 1700-1800 but one could safely say that it was still legal and practiced in at least 80% of the world come 1800. 1800 seems to be the turning point where the abolishment of slavery really took hold. By 1860 close to half the world had made slavery illegal. Slavery was still practiced by some countries as late as 1950. Here is a list of countries that abolished slavery after 1950 making it illegal.
Qatar 1952
Tibet 1959
Niger 1960
Saudi Arabia 1962
Yemen 1962
UAE 1963
Oman 1970
Mauritania 1981

Prior to 1500 defeated armies were the ones who usually became slaves of the victors or raids of other villages and towns nearby to gain slaves and in the Americas, sacrifice victims to the gods for such Indian tribes as the Incas, Aztecs etc.

Without putting slavery in the context of the times and or world view of it at the time it was taking place does not let one have a understanding of it or those who practiced it. When it came to slavery, the United States was no better or worse than most other countries of the world. Placing 21st mores upon those who preceded us by hundreds or even thousands of years is wrong. They didn't have our mores and did what society as a whole accepted. Whether slavery, human sacrifice, polygamy, what ever. As today where our society pretty much deems what is right and wrong for us and for us to act accordingly, so too in the past has past societies placed the same restrictions and accept their version of mores. Some of their practices are abhorrent to us today as I am sure some our our practices were be equally abhorrent to those who come after us.

 

But no nation is without fault. Look at what soldiers under the US flag did to the Indian nations. My point is, if you lose, history will judge you much more harshly. The victors become the heroes, the vanquished become the villains.

 

Well Josh, I have seen too many Americans divert their heart/soul into a symbol that represents more 'evil' than it should.

Meanwhile, others are dedicated to and striving to embrace and reconcile THIS nation and its Flag. Considering all things, I'd say it's enough for most people's plates.

The Confederacy was horrible to many and the sins of the same have led to effects that haunt us to this day. I see the importance of the history, but certainly not anyone pledging any allegiance or relegating places in their hearts to embrace the same. As far as I'm concerned, the "South" we left in the rear-view mirror of civilization, is far better off right where we dropped it off.

Time to go forward; really.

 

The meaning of the Confederate Flag has not changed since the Civil War. It stood for White Supremacy in 1861 and it stands for White Supremacy today.

If the meaning has been lost it's because of White Supremacists that managed to inflitrate our educational institutions to rationalize that the Confederate Flag was not the symbol of White Supremacy. They like to claim it was about "States Rights" but the Rights of the Confederate States were never violated by the US government. Had such a claim been made then those very same states could have, under the US Constitution, challenged the authority of the federal government before the US Supreme Court. They never did that because no violations of their States Rights had occurred.

The Confederate Flag in 1861 and in 2015 represents White Supremacy and has never represented anything other than White Supremacy since it was created.

 

I'm not from the south so you folks who do, defiantly know more about it than I. Are the people down there who are flying these flags trying to, or wanting to bring back slavery? Personally I will never judge a person based on that flag as I hope not to be judged myself based on some trivial peace of cloth.

 

No, The South never had a chance of winning, and even if - even *if* -- that would have left both nations, and especially the South extremely vulnerable to invasions by other countries, to more secession within their respective nations, leading to a severe Balkanization and recurring internal and external conflict.
We would never be the great and most powerful country in the world as we are today, and you likely wouldn't be here enjoying the fruits of that power as you are today.

Whenever I see that tired line "it would have died out soon anyway" I'm inclined to produce this:

​

and this:

State ---Free Population ---Slave Population (1860)
Mississippi -354,674 ------- 436,631
South Carolina-301,302 --402,406
Georgia ---505,088 ---------462,198
Alabama --519,121 ----------435,080
Louisiana --376,276 --------331,726
Texas ---421,649 -----------182,566
Arkansas --324,335-------- 111,115
North Carolina -661,563 ---331,099
Tennessee--- 834,082------- 275,719
Florida ---78,679 ------------61,745
Kentucky --930,201 --------225,483
Virginia --1,105,453 --------490,865

When someone can give me a good answer to what would have been done with these folks ...in the second column above,
(note, some are *majority* slave population)

then I'll believe slavery might have had a chance to 'die out.'

 

I've asked that above question for well over a decade in the thousands of CW threads I have participated in (and longer before that in live CW roundtable discussions) -- and never have I ever received a good answer to it:

Why? Because, any realistic appraisal shows - the South was not going to give up their slaves and the expansion into the territories was the greatest matter at hand. It was where the greatest wealth in the country existed. In slaveblood.

To give you some perspective, The collective wealth tied up in those slaves was well over 3 billion dollars.

That is yes, with a B. Three BILLION. Not in today dollars, adjusted for inflation -- Then dollars. Three billion in 1860 dollars.

If you wanted to buy all the railroads, factories and banks in the entire country at that time, it would have only cost you about $2.5 billion.

----> slaves were by far the largest concentration of property in the country. A stunning figure, Think on that.

Died out on it's own? No.

Ten years of Fire-eaters and barnstorming and Border Ruffians and huffing and puffing and caning and burning and bloodshed brought on the inevitability of those pompous, war mongering slaveowners, who were bound and determined to keep that human property - at all costs.

Those Southerners, if nothing else, knew how to read a map (eying western territories hungrily) - and they knew how to count (raw population numbers).

 

And one of 'em woulda been a Soviet satellite. Wouldn't thatta been just swell?

 

The Confederate battle flag was pretty much put in the closet for many decades after the Civil War. A small resurgence came about in the late 1800's and early 1900's -- when the Jim Crow laws, literacy tests, state mandated segregation - and basically full stomping on the Civil Rights of blacks in the South came about.

That short bit of time after the 15th Amendment blacks were allowed to vote, and it was Federally enforced - was gone.

For example, have a glaring look at raw disenfranchisement of the black population circa early 1890's, Mississippi -

In 1867, Miss., African Americans made up 56% of all Registered voters. (~66,000)

In 1890, they made up 25%

In 1892, they made up only 3%.

By 1900 ---> 0.4%



Source: Struggle for Mastery: Disfranchisement in the South, 1888-1908 (Fred W. Morrison Series in Southern Studies)

http://books.google.com/books?id=b8...sement in the South, 1890 mississippi&f=false

Look at the other states as well. Pretty amazing.

At this same time, a resurfacing of Confederate "nobility" came about, and United Confederate Veterans, the United Daughters of the Confederacy set about to rewriting the history of the War.

They started portraying the CSA as being about things like the tariffs, and States' Rights, and tried to whitewash the slavery aspect out of it altogether - and to the extent slavery existed, it was a benevolent kind, with gentle Mammies, generous, loving slaveowners, and happy happy slaves.

They did this to justify Jim Crow and the White Supremacy that brought out KKK and other paramilitary organizations that were terrorizing and intimidating the hell out of the the blacks at that time.

The Confederate Flag saw it's full resurgence during the Dixiecrat era, and later, when men came home from WWII, and tried to reintegrate into the South -- and roundabout the same time Civil Rights activists started pushing for equality.

That flag was trotted out in abundance then - and it's purpose was to intimidate and reinforce boldly : White Supremacy Reigns.

It's not about "bringing back slavery." It's a symbol of White Supremacy, and has been used as such for a long time.

Do some yokels just fly it because they are ignorant of this? Sure. Doesn't make them any less ignorant.

 

OK, and believe me when I say I'm not trying to make light of it. I'm a portagee, if you know about slavery then you must know the role my people played in it. Question, where do we draw the line? Am I allowed to feel proud? I'm not trying to be a jerk I really want to know.

 

Are you still here?

 

Wrong. The meaning of the Confederate Battle Flag has not been lost. BTW just who are you calling ignorant. Maybe this is a violation of the rules here? Do explain.

 

It is Americans that have been tainted by false history and media manipulation. Including the internet. Oxy is right.

Slavery and racism in the south was seriously distorted by interaction with the north as part of a manipulation by the church. All of that was after about 1820. The south was set up.

History does not tell the truth about the south. It was populated in the gulf and up to the Carolines before 1400.

Fort Caroline was destroyed a year after 1564 when built by the French as a refuge for the Huguenots, French heretics. Of course the French did not ship everything required to build it. The supported an existing population that built it for them. The Spanish destroyed it.

http://www.ibtimes.com/fort-carolin...-north-america-may-be-located-georgia-1557254

 

sure those that followed Hitler would of said the same about the swastika

 

Here is what the Confederacy, its symbols and the Civil War was/is about:

[video=youtube;pcy7qV-BGF4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcy7qV-BGF4[/video]