Did the lockdowns work?

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by Greenleft, Dec 7, 2022.

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  1. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    There are intelligent things government can do, what exactly depends on the circumstance.

    With covid, government could have put a genuine effort into getting the people most likely to be hospitalized to protect themselves. Give old people and those with health problems highly effective respirators and educate them about various measures they can take to reduce their risk. Tell them they can wear good quality PPE and still go shopping (buy services here, not foreign goods sold on Amazon). We might never have had a run on hospitals if we have focused on the most vulnerable.
     
  2. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    The death toll was much lower in Canada where the vaccination rate is higher.
     
  3. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    I think more people test now then tested back then. The rapid tests are a thing and havnt stopped being a thing.
     
  4. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    The death toll was much lower in Canada because their health care system didn't DIRECTLY GET AWARDED financially by tacking on "covid" in cause of death on the certificate.

    I trust none of the united states numbers as money talks and bullshit walks.
     
  5. Nemesis

    Nemesis Well-Known Member

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    This response was puzzling. A. What was the "reward"? B. Do you have any facts to support that Covid wasn't the cause of death on the death certificates---beside the fact that comorbidities also might've been a contributing factor? C. are you admitting that the death toll was actually lower? D. Do you trust the DuhSantis numbers in Florida when his administration was caught fudging the numbers? (which weren't good even after the fudging)
     
  6. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    LOL, or course if flattened it.
    Look at your own chart how the initial wave were flat, then we opened the world back up, let masking expire and boom, omicron had a huge spike.
    Your chart shows exactly the flattening of the curve.
     
  7. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Less severe is not just related to death. It's related to less transmission. And every other part of a virus being less.
    The social distance and mask mandates were largely lifted a year ago, about the time your chart showed the huge spike in cases with only a modest increase in deaths.
     
  8. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    LOL. The virus is only controlled in the rate of transmission. It's not controlled in a sense of ending.
    This is not rocket science, 1st graders can understand this.
     
  9. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    Are you that behind on the covid news that you havn't caught wind by now that hospitals did get funding per ventilator use and covid death?

    Seriously?

    Did you need me to run you through what Covid SARS 19 actually is? I mean it seems to be the case that you've somehow have gone through this global pandemic and yet have not paid attention to news as it happened?

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ore-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

    "Hospitals and doctors do get paid more for Medicare patients diagnosed with COVID-19 or if it's considered presumed they have COVID-19 absent a laboratory-confirmed test, and three times more if the patients are placed on a ventilator to cover the cost of care and loss of business resulting from a shift in focus to treat COVID-19 cases."

    No. I don't trust our numbers. Financial incentives coupled with a corrupt health care system and some miracle the United States just so happened to blow the doors off of the world as far as infections and deaths...

    Yeaahhhh.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2022
  10. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    Omicron was and is entirely much more transmisable then Delta.
    https://www.sciencealert.com/is-omi...-delta-here-s-what-we-know-and-what-we-don-tl
    https://health.ucdavis.edu/news/hea...-the-very-contagious-covid-19-variant/2022/01
    It's sub variant was even more contagious!
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220130/omicron-subvariant-more-contagious-than-omicron

    It's mild but more contagious. The reality is our new normal of infection rates is not any higher if even the same as it was when we went full hardcore mandates and lock downs.

    That's just a reality. The data is right there in front of you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2022
  11. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Very hard to compare. I recall one very tragic thing about the spanish flu was it tended to kill the young more than the old through cytokine storm. Due to that, the life years lost would be greater and I think it was simply more lethal too. But there are far more people available to die in today's world too. I recall if the original covid had gone completely unchecked and everybody got it, the death number would have been comparable to the higher estimates of spanish flu due to the larger world population.
    Very hard to say. The intention made sense though. If you minimize transition temporarily, you avoid hospitals getting overwhelmed. The more overwhelmed the hospitals, the more people of all kinds will die who otherwise could have been saved. Would the cost:benefit have been better with just masking, distancing, and when available the vaccines? Would be nice to see a good attempt at analysis. I recall being against lockdowns in favor of precautions, but certainly with just precautions there would have been more rapid spread.
    The loss of life by covid is far more than just people a few months away from dying. The very old are far more likely to die, but very few killed by covid would have died anyway in a few months. Most had years left.
     
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  12. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    So the message I keep getting from everybody (not just the person I quoted) is that lockdowns were absolutely vital in keeping hospitals open. But when I offer details for how that works like keeping up the morale of hospital staff and gathering resources in preparation for future surges, all I get is shrugs with "It's hard to tell"

    My memory of the chronology of the pandemic is a little hazy, but I do recall in Indonesia that the lockdowns were confined to around mid March to the end of June. The first vaccine was reported to be created in December of 2020. Now remember, the rollout would take months to be widely available so only the needy got shots. I got my AstraZeneca shot in June or July of 2021 and my second shot in September of 2021.

    I just checked on Google for the statistics for Indonesia and noticed an enormous spike in cases in February of THIS year (2022). This spike/surge in cases absolutely DWARFED previous surges until I cannot see them on the graph. I don't know if that spike was due to Omicron because I don't recall when Omicron was first detected. If indeed it was, I suppose no lockdown was needed because the symptoms were milder and the vaccines helped most people survive most of the post-lockdown surges in 2021.

    I do recall however during the lockdown of 2020 and in the months after, stories about how people defied the lockdown during Ramadan to go home to extended families. Then subsequently there were stories of cemeteries being at full capacity and unable to have fresh graves opened. Can you tell me here and now that President Joko Widodo was a negligent fool for failing to enforce the lockdown or that my fellow Indonesians are fools for putting culture over health?

    But let's say you grant me those two things: A negligent government and a foolish religiously brainwashed community. With those things, despite the good intentions, did the lockdown work?

    If there was no early lockdown, are you suggesting a theoretical 1347 plague like event with corpses in the streets?
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2022
  13. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    No it's quite clear that a lockdown, if enforced/followed will minimize transmission. This prevents hospitals from getting overwhelmed with too many covid cases at once. That means they can continue to do other medical work, and save those who can be saved. Without enough nurses or ICU beds, some people will die if too many come at once. The only question is if preventing excess deaths from overwhelmed hospitals can be achieved without a lockdown in all cases.
     
  14. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but that does not take into account post-lockdown surges. That's why I offered the idea of preparing resources, getting staff fired up, expanding wards etc. OR are you suggesting the vaccines were widely available by then?

    I might be answering my own questions, but some confirmation would be nice.
     
  15. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    The idea is that the surge after a lockdown should be smaller than the surge that would happen without a lockdown. Precautions to prevent a severe spike after a lockdown should be followed (masking, distancing). Case transmission still occurs during a lockdown, just at a reduced rate. Natural immunity is always increasing, and then later vaccines and less lethal variants (though delta was worse).

    But sure, if a hospital can stock up, that's good too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2022
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  16. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Reality and your chart says, the curve was flattened.
    Whether it was the lockdowns or some other means, it worked. It kept the healthcare system from imploding.

    One thing is pretty certain.
    If one never comes in contact with anyone who has a virus, that person should never get that virus.
    That alone should point to lockdowns, masking, social distancing all played a factor in flattening the curve and slowing the spread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2022
  17. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Of course something 100 yrs apart is hard to compare.
    I only compared the cases, not the deaths.

    25% of the world got Spanish flu.
    8% of the world got Covid.
    There's likely a dozen reasons for that much difference. Including there was no lockdown during Spanish flu. WW1 was just ending.
     
  18. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    There we go. Thank you. I can honestly say I learned something.
     
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  19. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    That's the best you can do?

    There's plenty of evidence covid vaccinations cut down on the death rate.
     
    Death likes this.
  20. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    I mean it had SOME impact, but as you can tell by the sudden and sharp drop off in the death rate right after Omicron spread world wide...to claim that was because of our 15th jab is an imbecile's hot take.

    The virus is what saved us. That's the point. The data is right there for you to look at if you don't believe me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2022
  21. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    This is why you have zero credibility. You fart out answers. Tell me who pays for this expanded health care? You-the Conservative who decries government spending? Who-only those who can afford that expanded are privately funded by themselves? Spit it out and finish it just once. Trump farting by you. No more no less. Let them eat beans.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  22. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    Well your right bruh. Instead of expanding health care, training and triage let's just pay everyone to sit at home on their ass and kill the global economy.

    Good one!
     
  23. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Again the more you right the more you display your absolute misunderstanding of viruses, health care management, vaccines.

    The virus saved us? The data is there. Show the facking data.The data is not right there and that is why you do not produce it. No data shows any virus let alone Covid 19 saved anything.

    Can your responses get any more absurd? Don't answer, they will. That was a rhetorical question.

    Again the actual issue is can you get adverse effects from taking the Covid 19 vaccine. That is the question:

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

    Doctors screen out high risk individuals.

    Now that many more people have been vaccinated, of course many more people who will die in the next two years will have had one more more Covid 19 shots. It does not mean because they died it was caused by the vaccine. The cause of death could still have been the result of something coincidental.

    The actual death rate as a direct result of the vaccine is not the same as the death rate of those who have died and tool the vaccine. The anti vaxers misrepresent and present both as one and the same. That is a falsehood and its the kind of misrepresentation that needs to be called out time and time again as these threads are used to fear monger and scare people.

    There is no data showing Covid 19 vaccines are killing people off so should not be used. There are incidents of mortality with people who have taken the vaccine but not dying as a result of the vaccine in that data.

    Data on people who die directly from an adverse effect or even indirectly from an adverse effect are being caught and that data shows the risk of such death minute compared to the risk benefits.

    This is why no anti vaxer will give you data of direct deaths from taking the vaccine to show its true size compared with the no. of people who have taken that vaccine. They will not because it defeats their argument and proves the exact opposite.
     
  24. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    I've already posted the data bud. I'm sorry it triggers you to acknowledge that it wasn't until after omicron spread that the death rate fell off a cliff. I know I know. This doesn't bode well for your "EVERYONE GET THE LATEST JAB!!!" narrative.
     
  25. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Listen up. You came on this board to pose as a Conservative against government spending. Now you contradict yourself proposing expanded medical care benefits but do not have the intellectual integrity to disclose that you want to have the government expand its spending to cover it.

    You not me are against government spending unless of course it suits you? This is not about me its about your two face. Unlike you I have supported and commended all governments in their role to help us take the vaccine. You on the other hand fart out of both sides of your Trumpet Tough Talk.
     

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