Do you support Abortion in the case of rape?

And I'm sure all the other Anti-Choice /Anti-Woman FORCED pregnancy advocates agree with you.....they don't seem to mind using force on women.

 

I wouldn't even worry about the rubbish he posts, its already been shown that not one single piece of his so called "evidence" is put forward by subject specialists, nor do they give the fundamental part of the argument .. the because .. It's easy to say "it's a human being", becomes a little more difficult when you have to add "It's a human being because..".
when challenged he just went off with the normal level of responses expected.

 

Why isn't it an option?

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One can post non biased articles and information on a pro-life site. What sites do you give that are non biased? LOL Guttmaucher...she is a pro-abort site?

 

This is the technique they use to AVOID WHAT IS BEING POST. What pro-abort site would report on the negatives of abortion? NONE
Which pro-abort site would report what science really says..if it goes against what the pro-aborts believe?

There is nothing wrong with the sites you posted.....they JUST WON'T ADDRESS THEM INDIVIDUALLY. So they focus on where they came from.

 

It's like banging your head against a wall....they don't get it, they don't want to get it. So you reference a medical textbook that students use in med school....and its not worthy cause it comes from a pro-life website. LMAO

They hypocrisy, the ignorance of the position is astounding.

 

Let me AGAIN....teach you the facts. The sperm is human...the egg is human......when they meet and fertilize....they are a new HUMAN BEING. Alone they are just a sperm and egg....together, a new life.

 

no no and no.

Even our laws have been known to address the unborn as babies. Everyone addresses them as babies but the rabid left wing pro-aborts. Collateral damage....to them.

BAby has everything to do with the birth process....its not the development to pro-aborts. For them...the unborn is not a person even past viability, even at full term...one second before birth and coming out of the womb...its not human, not a person, not a baby. LMAO

But whats funny is that you try to ask...how many of them are pro-late term abortion...and only a few will say yes. LMAO AGain hilarious. If its not a baby, human and a person.....then why AREN'T THEY ALL FOR LATE TERM ABORTION? AGain I point out the hypocrisy for their positions. I say POSITIONS...plural because they don't even agree with one another.

 

DUH, I answered that...."""The RAPED woman has to go through 9 monthst of pain, inconvenience, financial loss, possible job loss, medical bills, possible medical complications ...because of SOMEONE else whether it's a rapist or an Anti-Choice egotist""""

You may call that an "option" but for some OTHER women it may not be.

Can't you address the REST of that post of mine, #226

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Your friends obviously agree with you.......Force and Punishment it's what you and they are all about....

 

You used these phrases in your statement......"HER WILL" and "WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE IT REMOVED."

Could you clarify your position here please by answering these simple questions?

Her will gives the woman total rights over her body, is that what you meant?

Woman have the right to remove the living being from their bodies....when? If they own their bodies...and its their WILL....then your saying its ok for them to remove it even at nine months? Remove a healthy baby at nine months...?

 

churchmouse, did you ever figure out how to resolve your CONTRADICTORY predictions for the future???

How is it-

A. you think abortion will eventually be banned?

but B. "we are heading towards total socialism"?

You think a bunch of "pro-life socialists" are going to come to power???

 

Correction. The sperm is human...the egg is human...when they meet, they form a FERTILIZED EGG. That is a fact. It is only your OPINION that it is a human being at that point. There is no consensus about when one becomes a human being.

 

Well, if you do not consider the fetus a person, there is no reason to deny abortion even to 9 months. So why deny it after 25 weeks?

The argument remains the same. The fact that you are willing to restrict abortion at all means you DO believe the fetus is a person at some point. That is a pro-life position.

I think it is exactly the opposite. Pro-choicers put the mothers wishes first. If you are choosing to override her wishes, you are not pro-choice by definition IMO.

In the US, they would be. And I have seen examples of them in documentaries on TV, so I know they do exist here.

 

Sadistic-Savior said,

THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION THAT MOST OF THESE PRO-ABORTS WON'T ANSWER...WON'T ADDRESS.

You are bringing up great points. Most don't consider it a baby, a person until it's born. So in that case...(plus throw in the argument that its the woman's body, her decision) why not allow late term abortion on demand?
Keep drilling this point in and watch them squirm. I started a thread about this....a poll asking, should the law should change to allow women choice and freedom. Go look at how many did not go in to vote. LOL

You are correct again...They know what it is...they just don't care...which makes them look......??????? Well rules prohibit me from saying. They know and believe that its a person...but they think women have a right to kill it ...until they think it is viable (they can't agree when) and then they take the woman's rights away.

 

Well this is nonsense, the consensus IS that a new human being is created at conception. The silly thing being debated is when does it become a "person" . It is silly because a human being and a human person are one and the same.
Read an Ebryology book, the consensus is that a human being begins at conception.

http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html





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"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


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"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


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"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


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"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


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"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


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"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


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"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


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"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


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"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


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"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


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"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


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"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


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"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


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"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


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"[A]nimal biologists use the term embryo to describe the single cell stage, the two-cell stage, and all subsequent stages up until a time when recognizable humanlike limbs and facial features begin to appear between six to eight weeks after fertilization....
"[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryo to describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo....
"I'll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.

 

This Pulitzer Prize winning embryologist disagrees...

“What I’m concerned with is how you develop. I know that you all think about it perpetually that you come from one single cell of a fertilized egg. I don’t want to get involved in religion but that is not a human being. I’ve spoken to these eggs many times and they make it quite clear … they are not a human being. ” — Lewis Wolpert

 

So you dredged up one pro abortion person who may or may not be an Embryologist?
Judging by the juvenile content of his quote, it would be surprising if he is a high school graduate!

 

Because all the available evidence points to that time frame as being the point where sustained "brain waves" can be detected, prior to that point they are inconsistent .. so if I had to nail down when a fetus becomes "aware" I would favor being on the safe side and say 21 weeks.

I disagree based on the majority of pro-life people I have debated with they would consider my position (and yours) as not being pro-life, but as pro-choice, or hypocritical. Your position is pretty much in align with what the majority want.

what you are saying here is the extreme edges of the pro-choice people, just as those who say "it is a person form conception" are the extreme of the pro-life people .. The vast majority fall somewhere in between .. in fact I would say that I am not really pro-choice more pro-common sense.

I would like to see some evidence to support that assertion.
Despite an extensive search I have been unable to find a single case of co-joined twins (with one being parasitic) currently alive within the US, the closest I have found is one case discussed on Oprah, that of Manar Maged, an Egyptian baby.

 

Which is fine. But the argument you are making is that it is indeed possible for a fetus to be a person.

That is a pro-life position.

So you are saying that the vast majority of people agree with me that it is possible for a fetus to be a person?

That label means nothing. "Common sense" is arbitrary and subjective.

Either side could make the claim that they represent "common sense" since this issue is split almost exactly down the middle among the population.

 

Yes I would say it is, but not until at least the third trimester .. which is pretty much where the law stands now.

Pro-life is synonymous with the belief that conception is the point where a "person" becomes, I do not believe that, nor does the scientific evidence support that position, hence why I favor a pro-choice position to a pro-life position.

Yes they do, but again based on the viability timeframe and the brain development timeframe.

Thats the problem with labels, they tend to not cover the opinions of everyone. The issue isn't really split down the middle at all.

All the polls etc show that the majority of people want abortion to be legal with certain restrictions, the lowest polling results are for those who want abortion illegal in ALL circumstances.
The polls also show that the majority of people do not want Roe vs Wade overturned.

 

Well, pro-choice people do not agree with you that a fetus can be a person. Pro-choice people believe that the mother's right to control her own body takes precedence over the welfare of the fetus. They believe that outlawing abortion restricts this choice for the mother.

Your views are identical to any Pro-lifer. You simply draw the line at a different place before birth.

According to who?

That is good news to me.

Not if most people really do agree with me.

Not at the moment. That could change if people get more comfortable with the idea of fetuses being people.

We have seen a sea change like this before. Witness the current trend of homo marriage becoming legal...there was a time, and not long ago, when a sizable majority were against this. Things change. Laws adapt to conform to societal trends.

 

Not a single one of your sources confirm your statement that "a human being is created at conception."

 

and not a single one of his sources are from domain subject experts, something pointed out to him by another poster on another thread .. but still he continues to post them as if they were fact.

 

Do they, have you asked them?
I know of only one pro-choice person here who advocates abortion at any time for any reason, most follow a similar reasoning that there is a point in the pregnancy where the fetus is developed far enough for it it be considered a person, which is exactly what the current law does.
What would be really so bad about having no restrictions on abortion anyway, compare the abortion figures for a country like Canada, which has no restrictions, to the USA and you find that late-term abortions in Canada are lower than in the USA . .it shows that women do not "choose" to have a late term abortion.

LOL, I'd suggest asking some of the pro-lifers here if they think that.

Just take a trawl through the pro-life sites and see what their "mission statements" include, you will find the the vast majority state that there is a person at conception.

That is the way it has been since 1975 when polls were first taken.

not really, you consider pro-choice to be "any time, any reason" . .when it is not.

It hasn't changed since the polls began in 1975, in fact there has been little change in public opinion since that time.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

Personally I feel that people are comfortable with the current laws governing abortion, which is backed up by the polls linked to above.

The homosexual marriage item has changed as more people are becoming better educated about homosexuality in general, despite the right-wings attempts to stop it.

 

""Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
""Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]



""I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]"



Looks like you have been DEBUNKED AGAIN!

OUCH!!!!!

 

We have asked them in this very thread. Examples:

Even you have said it is not a person:

You call it a "potential" person here.

If you actually ask them "is the fetus a person" most of them will tell you no. But just to remove the ambiguity, I asked it in a poll I made just now: http://www.politicalforum.com/abortion/301647-do-you-think-fetus-person.html

Because it would result in innocent people dying through no fault of their own.

So what? Should we make rape legal simply because most men would "choose" not to rape?

It is not a decision that the mother should have. She should not have the option of ending another person's life on a whim.

I believe people will change their minds about abortion the same way they did about gay marriage, and for the same reasons you just listed.