Dr. Billy Graham correct that Love of G-d more wide than many Christians think.

I seriously doubt that opinion polls have anything to do with fact other than what is the opinion of people who take the polls.

And just for curiosity's sake what is fundamental energy and where did it come from?

And just to be clear the evidence for an afterlife that is available so far cannot indicate anything because there is none.

 

My impression of chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe, entitled The Anthropic Principle.... Dr. Hawking felt that fundamental energy would have existed for something like infinite time even before the latest major Big Bang type event of 13.72 billion or so years ago.

His description of The Cyclic Model of the Universe in that chapter reminded me of what a former Atheist and near death experiencer Mellen Benedict was shown about an infinite number of Big Bang type events occurring over eternity in the past.

Fundamental energy is the common denominator for electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force.


https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a05

Basically.... fundamental energy is the energy that would operate at some trillion times a greater level than the energy in particle accelerators......

 

I personally think that the Latter day Saints are probably closer to the truth on the topic of the afterlife than most other Christian denominations.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...apter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

 

You're venturing WAY outside your knowledge of physics, playing fast and loose with associations that have nothing at all to do with science and for which there is not evidence. Words have meaning. You can't just stir them all up and pretend the resulting word soup is more than sillyness.

My problem with Billy Graham was his "onward Christian soldiers" model of politics.

He counseled Nixon to bomb the agriculture and industry of North Vietnam in order to starve the civilian population, thus creating a monumental humanitarian disaster that North Vietnam would be incapable of addressing.

That's a level of hate and a disregard of the entire New Testament that can only be seen as profound.

 

True.... I am.... but maybe all of this is much more simple than we tend to imagine.

I think that you have a good point about Dr. Billy Graham giving President Nixon some truly bad advice on that topic! Thank you for filling me in on that detail that I had never heard about before. I would say that Dr. Billy Graham was at least somewhat "Malthusian"... which is not exactly a compliment.

https://www.near-death.com/science/research/future.html#a03

Does the Creator of humanity love humans A LOT?

IF SO... would our Creator use non-linear time lines to save some of us..... and eventually all of us who get lost in this time line?

 

NDE's are dreams. I don't see any justification for cnsidering them more than that.

According to the Bible, God is ready to send humans to hell if they don't properly suplicate.

I don't see a justification for getting so confused about time (which is an indivisible part of space-time specific to our universe) in order to complicate the view of God held by various earthly relilgions.

 

But..... Messiah Yeshua - Jesus did promise to speak to his disciples clearly and plainly rather than in parables in the future....

John 16:25

¶
These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."



https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2co/12/1/s_1090001

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

I can't resist taking a wild guess at what "unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter" might perhaps mean.........

We humans tend to take even simple ideas and turn them around to our destruction.... so how much more so rather complicated ideas like the long term implications of non-linear time and an essentially infinite number of fulfillments of Ezekiel chapter thirty seven....


https://www.near-death.com/experiences/gay/christian-andreason.html#a04h

 

You're dodging.

The claim that God will communicate more clearly in the future is not a supporting argument for NDEs being more than dreams. It can't be claimed that NEDs are a clear form of heavenly communication when compared to proverbs..

Let's remember that you are picking these words and phrases from theoretical physics - a field that looks for mathmatically supportable models that are consistent with what we actually know, but for which we have NO capability of testing to ascertain whether they are real - and thus remain pure conjecture.

There are NUMEROUS of these models from theoretical physics. They even go in and out of vogue.

And, in point of fact we KNOW that even the concrete of experimental physics has inconsistencies that are not understood at the scale of our universe as a whole.

Mixing theoretical physics and religion without even knowing the math, the physics or the word definitions is how one goes about creating word salad.

I know this is a religion forum. But, let's make sure we know where religion stops and science begins, as it's pretty much always a mistake to claim that science supports ones religion or that religion supports science .

 

But.... the basic idea does have the power to encourage us at least somewhat....

www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

I personally think that the Dr. Chaim Tejman theories and diagrams are brilliant in their simplicity.....

you may well tend to disagree.


http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/fund/fund1.htm

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/fund/fund3.htm

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/gender/g1.htm

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/book/life1.htm

 

I can't find anyone in the entire world of science, theoretical physics or experimental physics, who is even slightly interested i what Tejman says.

Yet, you come along and just love what he says while thinking it is science!!

Why?

 

One reason is because what he writes fits so well with String Theory and the testimony of many near death experiencers.



https://www.near-death.com/religion/christianity/george-ritchie.html

I believed in the Soul Sleep Theory firmly from 1972 until 1990 and I find that this idea is a vast improvement over that understanding of what happens after we die.

My ten year old daughter, eight years ago, really like the one where Ms. Jan Price met her previously deceased dog during her NDE.

This gave me something simple and powerful that I could pass on to my kids when they asked me some deep questions.


https://www.near-death.com/experiences/pets/jan-price.html

 

String theory is from theoretical physics. It's a braod family of mathmatical models for which there is NO ability to test and which is not seen as a leading direction for figuring out a more coplete cosmology.

So, there are multiple problems here. There is the state of string theory as a direction in cosmology. There is the fact that the ideas of your guy are totally hand wavey and undefined, making them compatible with just about anything one could possibly propose - making them meanigless. There is the fact that nobody in science is at all interested in anything he says.

Then you move on to NDE, which I've commented on before and which you have found no way to object. Basically, NDEs are dreams of failing brains combined with failing sensory organs.

Brains are FULL of views and memories related to the worlds of religion and nature. Being impressed that what brains are crammed full of would come through in a dream or NDE is ridiculous - it's what one would expect.

 

I admit that I could be incorrect.. but my very strong suspicion is that several studies actually are testing the ability of the human spirit to go outside our body and view fifth, sixth, seventh and even eighth dimensional space time........


https://www.near-death.com/psychology/triggers/extreme-gravity.html

I consider that the Ingo Swann research is related to this....
so is electrical stimulation of the right temporal lobe.....

 

There have long been all sorts of legitimate scientific examination of physical properties of the human body, including the extreme g forces experienced in combat aircraft.

But, they are not studying stuff about spirits.

The minute you see the word "spirit" you know for sure it's not experimental science. And, I know of no legitimate theoretical physics that goes there, either.

I'm fine with calling g related blackouts "near death experiences" if you want to. The problem comes up when someone wants to take the output of severely compromised brains, even brains that are dying as being more informative than the output of brains that are in top working order - in fact, brains that are rigorously trained in various fields of knowledge. And, of course there is the "spirit world" problem.

 

In my opinion... the human spirit = our more fundamental energy hard drive that exists separately from our four dimensional human bodies.....

Perhaps.... past lives are like a separate program..... or even metaphorical "Operating System".... there on our higher invisible dimensional hard drives????

This is the topic that inspired the Scribes and Pharisees of the first century to decide to kill Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus.....

http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/

Bruce F. MacDonald had a near death experience in 1966 and he was shown things about the life of Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus and the disciples that are astounding....

http://www.thomastwin.com/7 A Thomas samples.html

(near death experiencer Bruce F. MacDonald Ph. D)

Background information....

http://www.thomastwin.com/6 A Thomas background.html

 

I don't see anything new here.

There is a huge divide between science and religion. I'd rather see that divide recognized.

Neither science nore religion are benefitted by munging the two together in abstract ways that are so totally fluid and without foundation as Tejman seems to like.

 

My goal is different.... I want to see Science and Religion come closer together.....


https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/quantum-theory-supports-ndes.html

At this time the viewpoint of Richard Dawkins Ph. D. is accepted with a surprising amount of dogmatism.... which I view as being illogical... and intellectually dishonest.



http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/ruby.444300/

 

I like the idea of being clearer about what is religion and what is science.

My view is that the two CAN coexist, at least once one gets beyond the idea that Genesis is literal.

However, attempting to munge the two together is destructive of both science and religion.

You want NDEs and science to be seen as mutually supportive (at least) and that is just plain false. Something that is just plain false is not good for either side.

The fact that there are theoretical physicists working on cosmology is not a sign that it can or should be mixed with religion. The methods are entirely different. The meanings of the words are not the same. The reasons for success or failure of some model from theoretical physics has nothing to do with religious ideas. Tying religion to some model from theoretical physics is a bad idea, as there are many such models and they do not last.

`Let's remember that science (scientific method) does not accept ideas from theoretical physics unless/until they can be tested.

So, what's been gained by playing fast and loose with munging religion and theoretical physics? It's certainly not accepted by science. It's certaily not accepted by theoretical physics. It shouldn't be accepted by religion.

Science and religion are two entirely different ways of looking at things. The assumptions are different. The methods are different. The logic is differennt. The objectives are different. There really is nothing shared.

We should be working on coexistence, not on munging tobether two radically different ways of thinking. We should learn to use the right tool based on the question being explored.

 

Yes... I am of the belief that near death experience accounts support String Theory and the Cyclic Model of the Universe / Multiverse and ....... I see String Theory as supportive of near death experience accounts.

but......... NDE accounts do not support the type of understanding of religion that most professional theologians would endorse ....


https://www.near-death.com/experiences/exceptional/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a09

 

So, with string theory declining in popularity, what's your next association going to be?

More importantly, what's your methodology for picking models from theoretical physics to attach to your version of religion?

 

George Ritchie described what goes on in fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth dimensional space time after his nineteen forty three near death experience decades before String Theory was common knowledge.


https://www.near-death.com/religion/christianity/george-ritchie.html

I believe that String Theory is at least close in the sense that it explains about invisible dimensions in space and time that operate at higher energetic levels.....

We are now in a situation where the idea that perhaps we have a Creator who places essentially INFINITE VALUE on human and animal life........ could pave the way to some variation of JUBILEE as explained by Moses.

I would like to think that humanity is ready to move past placing value in gold, silver, oil, or other products?!


https://www.near-death.com/religion/christianity/howard-storm.html#a04

 

I don't agree that string theory is now or ever has been common knowledge.

I know people know the NAME. And, many know it depends on "strings" so small that we have absolutely no means of detecting their existence.

But, there isn't one string theory - it's basically a family that includes significant differences that very few know anything about. It doesn't explain multiple dimennsions. It just requires them. Beyond that, statistically speaking nobody understands string theory.

Attaching string theory for which there is no scientific evidence or even one version to your religion hits me as nonsense. What does it gain?

Why would you do that to your religion?

 

Since he's dead that's kind of hard.

 

Always an interesting subject. I thought I'd add a quick video link to a debate I saw that I think is relevant. TL;DR, there are scriptural defenses of universalism as well. It isn't a matter of scripture vs near death experiences.

 

[QUOTE="Cybred, post: 107216
Or, was than an NDE?