Dr. Billy Graham correct that Love of G-d more wide than many Christians think.

Personal opinion is that this question comes more down to semantics. The question is more what exactly does it mean.

That's why I'm going to refuse to give an answer to the poll.

I'm also not going to waste the effort writing out a long explanation on page 2 where most people will not bother reading or if they do will not bother understanding.

 

I think this is a more important question than that.

The narrow path demanded by Christianity omits an astonishingly large number of humans who have populated this Earth for the last couple hundred thousand years.

And, a significat percent of those did have religions.

 

Sorry, I don't understand you. What is a more important question than what?

I was saying the interpretation of the doctrine was an important point. (whether it has to be on earth or can be after death)

 

I'm saying that the narrow path defined by Christianity (one specific god, a set of requirements) compared to the size of the human population on Earth and their numerous religions is much more significant than "semantics".

Much less than half of Earth self identifies as Christian today (with those following various ideas on what might earn them an afterlife). And, it hasn't been better than that. In fact, at 0AD, the percent worshiping your god was zero and that's true for all times before that, as the tiny tribe of Israelites were pretty much indetectable in size.

 

I don't think you understood what I was saying at all.

Yeah, obviously I get your point, but do you get mine?

I'm saying that what you're saying could be a moot point.

You might be operating based on a false assumption. (That the doctrine of requirement for belief necessarily absolutely always requires this belief before death)

 

Now you're just proposing one of a large number of possible resolutions to the question.

That doesn't make the question less important.

Another resolution might be that God presents himself to humans in the form of their religions. So, in that case pretty much all religions are "right". Maybe we shouldn't be treating others as if they are all damned to hell, working to drag us to hell, too!!

Maybe those who never hear the Christian viewpoint get an exemption of some sort - that would include babies, those who lived before 0 ad and weren't Israelites, etc. But, if you meet someone who as never heard of Christiaity and describe your god to them, will they go to hell if they don't accept and act on what you say? Do those people lose their "exemption" once you proselytize? Are missionaries helping or hurting?

 

No, but it doesn't make the question absolutely necessary either.

 

Or maybe belief is not the direct cause of them going to heaven, but rather more of an indirect cause.

discussed more in this past thread:
a lot of the misunderstandings about Christianity come from a lack of wisdom about human nature

That is, it wouldn't really be the belief itself that is the qualifying factor, but rather how that belief shapes their heart and actions.

If the heart and good actions were sort of already there on earth (not necessarily easy), then it would not be too much of an un-simple answer to add the belief after death.

 

Good point.......

Good question......
For all of his many, many, many, many flaws, ( that only Mrs. Dr. Billy Graham should attempt to explain) ......

Dr. Billy Graham did try his best to NOT oversimplify big truths.... such as is addressed in the opening two posts of this discussion.......

.......


"It doesn't matter what you think about it....... the Bible is true whether you accept it or not." (Dr. Billy Graham) .....

True... but the Bible can be complicated...and we can make the error of over simplification of Biblical truths.....
....... "In 2016 the Jerusalem Sanhedrin chose two goats.... "

one goat served YHWH with his whole heart and improved and improved as a person and ended up having lived until now in the mind set of Isaiah chapter forty five..... but the other goat.... has became something of a modern "goat for Azazel!"

Will the "goat for Azazel" repent with his whole heart as perhaps Bar Abbas / Bar Abbas may have done although history does not tell us about the rest of the story?????

President Donald J. Trump on the other hand served Messiah Yeshua - Jesus with humility......
and the left wing hordes scourged him for these past seven years.......
through their media that they control.......
but...... what President Donald J. Trump accomplished by moving the American Embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv is huge.......
and is a great sign of things to come.

"In 2016 the Jerusalem Sanhedrin chose two goats.... "

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...edrin-chose-two-goats.598904/#post-1073383927

 

The world seems to be on the brink of a possible WWIII......


... the world economy seems to be on the brink of a Bear Market, (another 1929).... so if the Bride of Messiah is too cowardly to address questions like this under these extreme conditions......

then what could possibly wake The Bride of Messiah up..... I think that Matthew chapter twenty five is related to this aspect to the formula......

 

"Forgive them, for they know not what they do" seems to imply that forgiveness doesn't actually require conversion.

 

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

None of the mainline Abrahamic faiths agree with you on that.

 

Well, actually, most Jewish groups don't seem to believe in Hell and seem okay with the idea of a positive afterlife for those who don't follow Judaism. Most Muslims agree as well, at least when it comes to other Abrahamic faiths -- the "people of the book." As for Christians, the fundamentalist groups still preach a Hell for nonbelievers, but most followers seem to acknowledge the possibility of salvation for non-Christians.

 

Billy Graham was NOT a man of peace as exhibited by the life of Jesus.

He was a strong proponent of the cold war.

He strongly advocated major escalations in the war against Vietnam from his position as religious councilor to Nixon.

He strongly advocated for escalation in the Israeli atrocities in Gaza and West Bank, more than happy to bulldoze the homes of those living in West Bank, and other such atrocities.

I realize that the Bible states that God helped with the slaughter of all humans in Jericho in order to take their land, as well as carrying out other atrocities, but that is NOT what Jesus exemplified in his life on Earth - in his acts as well as the philosophy he stated in Matthew 25:31-end.

Your whole view of religion is blemished with your inability to understand what Jesus stands for.

 

I was directing that at the claim that some Abrahamic faiths do not believe in requirements of conversion.

I know of no denomination that believes in salvation without conversion.

 

?? I clearly referred to the post I was responding to, which laid it off on semantics.

And, it is a more important question that that.

 

So, do you get your info on Trump by asking his wife?

Or, were you just being silly?

 

I know of Jewish denomination that believes that salvation requires conversion. Most Muslims believe that Jews and Christian are eligible for salvation. Most Quakers, UCC, and Episcopalians I've met believe in salvation without conversion. Plus there are other universalist groups who believe that everyone will be saved.

 

Well, you really need to look at what the mainline doctrine is for these versions.

I think you are right about Quakers. But, there are about 75K Quakers in the USA, so when making generalizations it's fair to aggregate them among the other minor branches.

Islam and Judaism have well supported conversion paths.

Episcopalians have a conversion path, too. To be an Episcopalian, one must be baptized by water, for example.

 

They have conversion paths, just as Quakers do. But having a conversion path does not mean that they believe conversion is required for salvation. I honestly can't think of a single Jew I've ever met who believes in damnation for all non-converts. I'm not even sure a faction like that exists in Judaism.

 

@WillReadmore
This is an old link, but the numbers here are more likely to have grown than to have shrunk: https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...ns-say-other-faiths-can-lead-to-eternal-life/

 

Well, Judaism is certainly divided and it's further complicated by the secular aspects of being of Jewish descent.

But, my understanding is that for the most of the religion an acceptance of the covenant is a requirement.

 

I don't know of any Jewish denomination that believes this, and I'm talking about the religious denominations, not just secular Jews. my family are Karaite Jews, and they don't believe that. Reformed Jews certainly don't. I haven't even met any Orthodox Jews who believe that. And it looks like many members of the main Christian denominations disagree as well (see above).

 

That is super interesting!

I think it doesn't quite address the issue of conversion, however.

For example, one could believe Muslims can go to heaven. But, what about those who claim to be Muslims but have done nothing to actually convert?

For those, Muslims wouldn't consider them Muslims, would they?

I don't agree that these stats, however important in answering many questions, actually point to conversion as being unnecessary.