Even as vaccine numbers rise, Democrats double down on masks

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by XXJefferson#51, Apr 20, 2021.

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  1. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Why would we need the word sterilizing to appear when the definition of sterilizing immunity is in the text? When you said this you denied the ability of the human immune system to achieve sterilizing immunity.

    You’ve gone from denying the entire concept of sterilizing immunity to wanting to dictate to researchers they must use the words “sterilizing immunity” in their publications?


    The CDC study is peer reviewed internally. From the CDC on their publications in MMWR.

    Also, CDC research is subject to periodic external peer review.
    If studies from the CDC are not acceptable to you I’m not sure what you are looking for. I’m also not sure what your objection is to pre-print data.

    What does a control group have to do with peer review? If a study is of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated individuals, what is the control group? LOL

    When I supply evidence and you say it isn’t evidence you are making a claim about evidence. When you presented a link claiming both sterilizing and functional immunity are induced by these Covid vaccines and then claim there is no evidence you are making a claim “either way”. I’m fact both ways. You are contradicting yourself by taking opposite positions simultaneously.

    Can you describe a third type of infection that is not asymptomatic or symptomatic?

    Why do you reject solid evidence for sterilizing immunity?
    The requirement is that a vaccine prevent symptomatic and asymptomatic infections. These Covid vaccines do. As my links and your link demonstrate.
    Then why do you keep posting the pull quote saying sterilizing immunity is not induced in everyone that is vaccinated? Again, if your source was claiming there isn’t sterilizing immunity it would come right out and say it doesn’t exist or isn’t induced in ANY vaccinees.
    Why do you think your requirements for sterilizing immunity should differ from those of the scientific community? What are your requirements? Can you describe a third type of infection besides asymptomatic and symptomatic that must be prevented for sterilizing immunity to exist?
     
  2. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    Per Tucker Carlson's news show... the vaccine was not officially tested on pregnant women or people with covid antibodies [people who had recovered from having covid.]

    .
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
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  3. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    I did not deny the ability of the human immune system to achieve sterilizing immnunity! Why do you keep making things up?
    "sterilizing immunity" is the gold standard for vaccines. The nearest any immuniologist involved in any study has come to saying that sterilizing immunity has been demonstrated was in the Israeli study where one of them stated that he "suspects" that sterilizing immunity is present
    Which unvaccinated individuals? The whole country? The population in the middle of nowhere? The population that gathered at the Capitol protest? Were the study subjects asked to follow strict instructions regarding masks, social distancing and hygiene? The statement in your link stated ".....was reduced by 90 percent two or more weeks after vaccination....... was reduced by 80 percent two or more weeks after vaccination....." Reduced compared to what or whom? Where is the link to the actual study, I could not find it
    I have not been contradicting myself. I have asked for a peer reviewed (or if you like, a study from the CDC) that concludes the claim that one of the Covid vaccines provides sterilizing immunity. The difficulty of supporting that claim is that if the immunity only lasts a matter of months then that vaccine has not reached the requirements to be classed in the same category of "sterilizing immunity" vaccines as say, the measles or HPV vaccines.

    I direct you to the table in Annex 1 of https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/de...ction-of-SARS-CoV-2-following-vaccination.pdf
    The vaccines may have reached grade 2A at this moment in time but even that is too early to be a conclusion
     
  4. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, like the PCR, it's rather like a coin toss. Taking the injection may save your life, or it may kill you. Driving to town may save your life, or it may kill you. Yes, it's impossible to say.

    I would be very interested on your take regarding the semantics used regarding this cocktail.
     
  5. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'll clarify--people far more qualified and educated and informed than you have commented about the apparent widespread changes in menstrual cycles and quality taking place in some women. These comments come from doctors and midwives.

    That you are ignorant of the conversations and comments about this phenomenon simply highlights your cognitive dissonance.
     
  6. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    It was not tested on humans. That is one contributing factor to its being released EUA only. They did do limited animal testing on rats, and found that the pregnant rats given the drug all lost their pregnancy quickly.
     
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  7. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I’m not making anything up. This statement of yours specifically precludes the existence of sterilizing immunity by making incorrect claims about how the immune system works.

    Again...
    When you deny existence of neutralizing antibodies that prevent infection in sterilizing immunity by claiming the immune system doesn’t work that way you have denied sterilizing immunity. By the way, we have known neutralizing antibody titers resulting from the mRNA Covid vaccines are very high (by design) since phase 1 immunogenicity data was released. Incidentally neutralizing antibody titers are unusually high in the HPV vaccinees. It’s almost like a Phizer and Moderna knew what they were doing...
    And the pull quote you provided—it’s very clear sterilizing immunity is induced in some but not other vaccinees. Which is my claim. That sterilizing immunity is induced in 80-95% of vaccinees with vaccines being used in the US.
    Healthcare workers in six states. My apologies. When I linked the CDC study initially it was published under MMWR and had a link. Now it is published under CDC only. Here is a link to the study.
    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm?s_cid=mm7013e3_w#T2_down
    You have presented evidence yourself of sterilizing immunity resulting from these vaccines. At the same time you are claiming no evidence exists. That is contradictory.

    I’m open to (current, not stuff from months ago) data showing immunity only lasts months. All data I’m aware of points in the opposite direction. I’m also uninterested in variants because antigenic drift/shift to new pathogen are not part of this discussion.

    I have never compared to other vaccines. I’ve stated the Covid vaccines in use in the US induce sterilizing immunity in 80-95% of vaccinees. When I’ve referred to other vaccines I’ve only pointed out which ones induce sterilizing immunity to show your links are incorrect in saying such vaccines are rare.

    I will point out for HPV vaccines the data relied upon is based on yearly screening for breakthrough infections where the data I’ve presented uses weekly screenings for breakthrough infections. I hope you can appreciate how this will effect reported breakthrough infection comparisons.
    The problem with your link is it has very little relevance to the subject. I have specifically limited my claims to Covid vaccines in use in the US. Your link includes nearly all common Covid vaccines many of which have NO data similar to what I’ve presented. Also, I’ve never tried to classify Covid vaccines as “sterilizing vaccines”. I’ve claimed the ones in use in the US induce sterilizing immunity in 80-95% of recipients and provided very solid evidence of this.

    I know you guys don’t pay much attention to dates, but my CDC study was published the day of your link. Your link does not even acknowledge that data because they were unaware of it. There are some pretty inferior Covid vaccines out there without much data on their real world effectiveness. Include them as your link does and I agree with their appendix table a bit at the time it was published (not now it needs to be updated). But for my claims about vaccines in use in the US using that table is comparing apples to worms that eat apples.

    Furthermore, as per your source, the table in annex 1 is to address transmission risk, not infection prevention (which is what sterilizing immunity is by definition) specifically. I do find it odd they believe transmission risk is not low in individuals in which no infection can be detected.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  8. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    ... of what?

    Showing hesitancy about a largely untested non-FDA approved experimental gene therapy injection is NOT "anti-vax". Try actually listening to (and comprehending) a differing viewpoint...

    This is what the Demonkkkrats in government are doing, and this is their issue.

    Doctors are learning about it too. Apparently there is something about the gene therapy jab that can be transmitted from "jabbed" people to "non-jabbed" people, which has already led to miscarriages, amongst other issues, in people who never even received the jab. These doctors get ignored by people like you, of course.

    ... of what?

    See earlier explanation of this.

    This is largely a Demonkkkrat problem.

    This jab is a death jab. The worst, due to covid fear mongering and these gene therapy injections, is yet to come. Expect this Fall to be a rough one.
     
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  9. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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  10. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    You've been shown numerous peer reviewed studies showing masks help to prevent the spread of both COVID and influenza.
     
  11. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    And I've provided reasoning as to why they are bogus.
     
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  12. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    "nuh uh" isn't an argument. You have to actually prove the over 10 peer reviewed studies I gave you are wrong, by citing opposing peer reviewed studies. You of course can not do this, as there is no such study.
     
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  13. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I’m assuming you are referring to mRNA “vaccines” so will limit my comments to them here.

    Well, I’ve thought about the semantics quite a bit. To start, the word vaccine was coined by E. Jenner of cowpox/smallpox fame. It’s essentially Latin for “made of cow” or “pertaining to cow”. Obviously that’s not what we think of today when we use the term vaccine. Here’s a pretty good definition of what most considered “vaccine” before COVID.
    However, there are/were very notable exceptions to that accepted definition. One being the tetanus “vaccine”. It is not made of C. tetani or a part of that bacterium. It is purified and inactivated bacterial toxin (poop if you will). And it confers no protection from infection nor does it help clear an infection. It just prepares the body to attack/deactivate the toxin produced by C. tetani infections.

    The second “exception” to the above definition is subunit vaccines. They do not contain the actual pathogen in an attenuated or killed form. They only contain a specific “copy” of a piece of a pathogen, like a protein (amino acid sequence) or sugar (polysaccharide sequence). The “copy” bit of protein or polysaccharide can be/is produced in different ways including isolation and purification of disassembled cultured pathogen, in limited cases synthetic production of polysaccharides, and recombination. Recombination is where genetic material (DNA) of the pathogen is combined with that of another organism (usually a yeast/fungus) and the yeast “manufacturers” the protein (in this case) that is the antigen (that elicits an immune response) in the resultant vaccine.

    So the first point is we have been using “vaccines” for decades that do not fit the old “tried and true” definition of a vaccine. Some attenuated and killed pathogen vaccines still use bovine serum, blood, milk proteins, and milk sugars as components in growth media the pathogens are cultured on/in. But no human vaccine today literally comes “from cow” or from cowpox sores or necessarily “pertains to cow”. Yet we still use the term for things that are very different from the original smallpox vaccine the term was coined for. Also, we have moved far beyond using only actual pathogens in vaccines. Even the “copies” of parts of pathogens we use can be synthetic. Yet, we still call all these ways of preventing disease and infection “vaccines”.

    So, as far as the semantics of what we call these “cocktails”, I see no valid reason not to refer to them as vaccines. They “fit” the definition of “vaccine” as well as or better than some traditional “vaccines” and new vaccine technologies like synthetic polysaccharide. Nobody refused to refer to subunit or toxoid preparations as vaccines, I don’t see any reason not to refer to mRNA technology as vaccines.

    Yes, I’ve not addressed the “gene therapy” angle. I’ll try a short answer, if anyone has questions I’ll elaborate.

    “Genes” are essentially segments of DNA. DNA is contained in the cell nucleus and stays there. The “genes” (DNA) communicates with ribosomes outside the nucleus that assemble proteins using mRNA. mRNA is synthesized in the nucleus and actively transported out of the nucleus to the cell cytoplasm where they instruct ribosomes how to synthesize proteins. mRNA molecules are too large to exit pores in the nuclear membrane so have to be identified by transport molecules and actively “pushed” through the membrane. When errors in transcription (transcription is production of RNA from DNA code) occur and a mRNA molecule is synthesized that is not recognized by transport molecules it is not exported. The active transport of mRNA through the nuclear envelope/membrane is “one-way”. There is no biological process allowing mRNA to get into the nucleus—only to move from inside the nucleus to the outside of the nucleus. And, as mRNA molecules are too large to fit through pores in the nuclear membrane, neither concentration gradients or Brownian motion can move mRNA into the nucleus. Thus, there is no way for mRNA from outside the nucleus to ever interact with the DNA (genes) inside the nucleus.

    So by definition, mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy or gene editing. Gene therapy is either deletion/replacement of faulty DNA or additions of DNA into the genome. In the case of mRNA vaccines they can not be gene therapy because they have no way to alter or add to the genome.

    A further obstacle to mRNA adding to or editing your DNA is the fact the two are incompatible structurally. Essentially, DNA is the only molecule that can be inserted into existing DNA. To move “information” between DNA and RNA requires transcription previously mentioned or reverse transcription (as used in RT-PCR Covid tests) To alter DNA, mRNA first would have to be converted to DNA. This requires an enzyme called reverse transcriptase. This enzyme does not exist in the nucleus.

    If mRNA could move into the nucleus and add it’s code to your genome, it would result in almost universal fatal mutations. Your very own mRNA would kill you.

    When it’s all said and done, mRNA vaccines are really just subunit vaccines. The only difference between these new ones and old ones is your own body manufacturers the subunit (the spike protein) instead of a yeast or lab technician doing the work. I’m ok with that.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  14. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    The other day, I left a message for this older man I knew who was just hoot that I sometimes did some things with to see if he wanted to pick up some extra cash helping me with a project. His daughter called me today to tell me he had died from COVID last fall. Devastating news but more importantly that virus spread like a wildfire through that family which was devastating to them. Everybody got it. Many ended up on vents. The dad was on one and then off one and he just started declining rapidly a few days after they had said no longer needed it and removed him. She shared with me the last conversation she had with him before they took him back from the ER on his admit and she never saw him alive again. It was along the lines of he had made it this far as a black man who had to fight for every thing he ever had and here he was about to get taken out by a damn invisible virus from China.

    Get your jabs if you haven't had the virus at all. Maybe it works, Maybe it doesn't. Maybe (probably) something in between. You owe it to your loved ones even if you don't give a damn about yourselves.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  15. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Neither is endless repetition of government and pharma talking points. Repeating lies 10000 times does not make them become true. You and others regurgitate the psychobabble of Fauci & Friends and expect to be taken seriously. You are taken seriously only by other members of the Church.
     
  16. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    I accept your informed explanation, and I accept that it could be possible for these things to work, but I don't see it happening now.

    These things have been brought to market in violation of SOP and probably in violation of various statutes. They have never been used before, and are already having huge impacts on public health, in negative ways. Indeed, informed scientists and physicians are calling for ending their use.

    Halt Covid Vaccines, Prominent Scientist Tells CDC - LewRockwell

    These things have been brought under fraud, and as Dr. David Martin shows, the public records of the USPO show the details of those frauds. They show the malfeasance of Anthony Fauci and others.

    So, semantics aside, these are dangerous drugs brought NOT for public health, but for perverse private gain.

    I'll never take one, and I pity those many who have already taken it.
     
  17. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    You did't clarify, you deflected and refused to answer the question. Who are these and I quote.."people far more qualified and educated and informed than you..."? What are their names, qualifications and just what is it they said?

    How hard is that to answer. This is twice now you deflected and refused to provide names and statements. Why?

    There are plenty of people who are less educated, equally as educated and more educated that you or I in many things. Whether their individual opinions on a specific matter are relevant or not will depend on many things but you have yet to provide me with someone, anyone, who has stated anything let alone evidence that they used to base a conclusion that any vaccine let alone the Covid 19 vaccine causes spontaneous miscarriages.

    You now refuse again to provide a name, a specific statement and most importantly a specific piece of information they said. So you didn't clarify your point at all.

    I am not aware of ONE study, or any evidence that directly links a vaccine to a miscarriage or states a vaccine causes a miscarriage. Are you?

    You keep saying there are plenty of people more educated than me who say vaccines cause miscarriages.So? Who? What are their names? What did they say? What was the basis of their conclusion?

    I can only assume Eleu from your responses you know of no actual individuals let alone evidence that states Covid 19 vaccines cause spontaneous miscarriages otherwise you would provide it.

    If you had any evidence you would provide it.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
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  18. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Unlike Eleuthra I will back up my position there is no evidence that links Covid 19 to causing miscarriages to the following statement from the Mayo Clinic:


    "Myth: COVID-19 vaccines cause infertility or miscarriage.

    Fact: No, COVID-19 vaccines have not been linked to infertility or miscarriage.

    A sophisticated disinformation campaign has been circulating online, claiming that antibodies to the spike protein of COVID-19 produced from these vaccines will bind to placental proteins and prevent pregnancy. This disinformation is thought to originate from internet postings by a former scientist known to hold anti-vaccine views.

    These postings are not scientifically plausible, as COVID-19 infection has not been linked to infertility. Also, no other viral infection or vaccination-inducing immunity by similar mechanisms has been shown to cause infertility. Antibodies to the spike protein have not been linked to infertility after COVID-19 infection. There is no scientific reason to believe this will change after vaccination for COVID-19.

    While there are no formal studies, the best evidence comes from women who got sick with COVID-19 while pregnant. While data clearly indicate pregnant women are at higher risk of hospitalization due to COVID-19 infection, there is no evidence of increased miscarriage rates.

    During natural infection, the immune system generates the same antibodies to the spike protein that COVID-19 vaccines would. Thus, if COVID-19 affected fertility, there already would be an increase in miscarriage rates in women infected with COVID-19. This has not happened."

    source: https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem....eatured-topic/covid-19-vaccine-myths-debunked
     
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  19. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Since Eleuthtra will not provide a source for the claim Eleu states that Covid 19 vaccines cause miscarriage I can on the other hand provide evidence that debunks this allegation:

    https://www.wral.com/fact-check-blo...id-19-vaccines-causing-miscarriages/19613526/

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ted-person-wont-cause-miscarriage/7303796002/

    In fact pregnant people are at INCREASED risk for Covid 19 related complications and so to tell them not to take the COVID 19 vaccine could in fact be irresponsible and for those women who are pregnant don't let fear mongering determine your situation speak with your gp and rest assured if you do take the vaccine there are precautions taken:

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/monitoring-pregnant-people.html
     
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  20. freedom8

    freedom8 Well-Known Member

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    Eleuthera knows nothing about science. He's only spreading anti-vax propaganda. Maybe working for a so-called "religious" Cult of fanatics; these are the most dangerous.
     
  21. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    Tucker had zero problems with it when Trump was president.
     
  22. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply. I’ve read through your links and links contained in those links.

    Everyone knows my posting history on the lies we’ve been told by Fauci on Covid and by the medical/scientific community on things like influenza in the past. I have spent hours here pointing those lies out and what the negative consequences of them have been. We certainly have a big problem with mis/disinformation.

    But I have to base my positions on evidence and I can’t find any evidence of reproductive harm from these vaccines. Just like the “gene therapy” concern being irrelevant because mRNA can’t change DNA for multiple reasons I see this antibody interference with placental development to be unfounded. First because it’s based on the fact synctin and the spike protein only share a sequence of four amino acids in common. The resultant actual protein structures are very dissimilar. For spike protein antibodies to have affinity for synctin the two proteins would have to be nearly identical if not identical.

    The second point is that there is no evidence of antibodies from natural infection affecting placental development either, something we would have plenty of evidence for now.

    The antibody dependent enhancement concern is one I started researching and posting about last summer I think. I’ve been looking for evidence of this phenomenon and can’t find any. We should have seen it with serum antibody treatments or in clinical trials of vaccines if it was going to be a problem. It hasn’t been. It may have been a valid concern early on but not now.

    Finally, I’m always concerned when a group of people want to force others to do a thing against their will. Especially when appeal to emotion is initially used to influence behavior. I’m very grateful we still have the right in most cases to share information and opinions and eventually make up our own minds on how to proceed—to vaccinate or not. It’s my hope it stays this way, but I fear it won’t. So I see loss of freedom as a bigger potential problem than adverse health consequences from vaccination.
     
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  23. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    I learned a very long time ago that it is impossible to reason with those in denial of facts. You are one of those people.

    Rational public dialogue is not your goal and not your style. I could post links to Sheri Tenpenney and other women and doctors, but you would simply condemn them as prevaricating or anti-vaxxers.

    You don't want to face the reality of strange menses going on around the country, and I'm not surprised.
     
  24. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Do you not accept the VAERS data regarding lost pregnancies after the shot? More than a month ago the number was around 60. I am astounded that a young pregnant woman would take the shot, but I know none of them were informed. Informed consent is not practiced much in this country.

    Here is a discussion by 5 doctors who happen to be women regarding the menstrual events all over the country.

    Alert The "Vaccine" Is a Bioweapon - 5 Doctors Testify | Healthcare | Before It's News (beforeitsnews.com)
     
  25. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    This is incoherent rambling. I have given you both over 10 peer reviewed studies proving you wrong. “Nuh uh” does not rebut science.
     
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