Ghosts are Proof of God

It rathewr is one definition, a narrow one which suits the agenda of Christian dogmatism, because if animal ghosts were acknowledged, their "proof" of a soul and their God would go up in a puff of smoke, since animals do not have souls according to Christian doctrine.

" In traditional belief and fiction, a ghost is the soul or spirit of a deceased person or animal that can appear, in visible form or other manifestation, to the living.
...
Ghosts are generally described as solitary essences that haunt particular locations, objects, or people they were associated with in life, though stories of the phantom armies, ghost trains, phantom ships, and even ghost animals have also been recounted."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost

 

Yes, there a documented reports of animal ghosts:
http://www.ghostresearch.org/articles/animal.html
http://www.trueghoststories.co.uk/Animal%20Ghosts.htm

 

Yes you have gotten very good at seeing my patterns. They consist primarily of asking direct questions, and (on the rare occasions when you answer them) using your answers to prove your own argument false. You are now so familiar with that pattern that you have completely stopped answering those direct questions.

Now... stop defending what I have not attacked and focus. Your task is given the existence of ghosts, to prove God.

Go.

None of that has any evidence for it, but okay, we'll concede that arguendo too. You still need to leap the vast conceptual gulf between ghosts and God.

How droll that in other threads you completely refuse to speculate on the character of God, denying even even the ability to declare Him omniscient, yet here all of a sudden you are not shy about calling him "transcendent." Ignoring that we know from history that there have been many versions of God that were not eternal, this is no different from saying that horses are like unicorns, or that midgets are like leprechauns. The existence of one does not imply the existence of the other... let alone demand it.

But you can't just "posit" such a nexus without reason. Your OP was titled "Ghosts are Proof of God." Not "Ghosts allow us to posit God." You don't even need ghosts to posit God. You can posit God all day and twice on Sundays.

Positing is easy. Proof? Not so much.

You offered us proof!

Which is so mealy mouthed and equivocal an answer that you effectively did not answer at all.

It would have pleased me immensely if you had answered the question rather than run screaming from it. Alas, you did not and that conversation has moved on to discussions with people of greater intestinal fortitude.

Insults are not arguments. Deal with the discussion.

So... please Yosh. You repeated the "dots" a half dozen times now.

When are you going to connect them? When are you going to live up to the promise of your OP?

 

I agree completely. But in this thread, even when ghosts are completely conceded for argument purposes, Yosh still can't get from ghosts to God.

 

I don't believe in reincarnation.

 

Materialist atheists (i.e., those who do not believe in a dualistic universe that has the existence of supernatural souls or other entities) tend to think that reincarnation is as absurd as any other spiritual concept.

Spiritualistic atheists (i.e., those who believe in a dualistic universe that allows for the existence of supernatural souls, such as some schools of Buddhism, some animists, and various other religions), however, would accept it.

 

fair

they sure do.

So does what 'darwin' did (on the origins of species) still live?

Does what hitler did, still haunt us with a holocaust of memories?

Did your parents give a portion of themselves (sperm/egg) for you to be here?

Are all three actions, a cause of actions, in todays world?


What's the spirit of them?


So is it possible that what people have learned to believe that describes them OLD spirits and souls, just the antiquated version of what is real?


Now to comprehend what them realities are, does it mean we can better understand 'god'?

 

This is just a silly arguement. There is no proof that ghosts exist unless you choose to count blurry photographs and the spooky noises you think you hear in the night. With this in mind your entire arguement falls apart.

On a second note even if we found that ghosts did exist how could that be proven to be a direct link to god? Because humans could have a soul ( A very BROAD, very general word) means there is a god automatically? The only victory you would have in this situation would be proving there is something after death. God is another matter entirely.

 

I didn't realize you considered the eternal transcendent nature of God to be a matter of "character". Your problem is your misunderstandings do not invalidate what I say.

I'm not aware of any conception of an all powerful creator God that doesn't claim that God is eternal and transcends physical death or time and space.
Who are you thinking of? Batman?

B.S.! I simply did not reply the way you wanted me to. Perhaps it's time for you to stop whining over this.

Oh, dear! Another slight to my manhood. Now what do I do?

Nothing will provide sufficient proof to an atheist ideologue intent on preserving his precious dogma no matter what! A soul that transcends physical death is ipso facto proof of God and the after life (neither of which you believe in...no wonder you are so frightened of the implications).
If you were only the slightest bit honest you would admit this. But, you are not. Sad to be as petty as you are.

 

Wow... another area in which you are informationally impoverished. Here is a list of over 100 different creator Gods. Many of them even were born and died. Have fun catching up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Creator_gods

Oh... not "simply." Carefully. You were so terrified at what you knew was the answer that you refused to answer at all.

Not to your manhood. That would be an insult to many women I know.

Who will ever know. You haven't even tried.

You have made exactly no effort to connect the dots from ghosts to God.

 

It doesn't fulfill the properties of life, so, no. It's a meme, so it does propagate, though that's no more a living thing than the concept of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal.

It's an event with long ranging consequences. Again, no properties of life, so it's not a living thing.

Yeah, but that's not particularly mystical. It's certainly awesome, wonderful, and incredible, but it doesn't imply anything about what occurs after death.

All things affect all things, eventually. That doesn't mean dualism is necessarily correct, though.

What is "spirit"? Gotta define things before we can talk about them cogently.

Again, we need precise definitions before we can discuss things fully.

 

No. Not conclusively.

How?

This one is probably true.

It's inappropriate to deny a deductive conclusion without denying a premise, so it wouldn't be right to respond to this at all since I am inquiring about the premises.

 

Could you be any more of a complete idiot? I don't argue there might be 100 different models of what you say. Why not make it a thousand, or ten thousand while you are at it? I don't believe in any of them and God, the supreme creator, must necessarily be beyond birth and death in my opinion. So what do I care about your list?

Would you still like to claim you don't care if I answer you or not? Of do you just want to come out, be honest for once, and admit it's desperately important to you? Of all the things I am or might be, "terrified" of answering a hypothetical question of next to zero importance will never be one of them. Why not just grow up...or is it too late for you?

Yet another insult that's even more grand than before? Aside from being proof of your hypocrisy, it proves I've really gotten under your skin. Thank you.

No efforts would please or satisfy you. Therefore I reject your absurd claim as the simple prattling of a fool.

If atheists believe that God does not exist, and consequently that physical death means the end of consciousness and life (as they do), then a soul that has transcended this physical death must, ipso facto, be proof of God by the atheists' own standards.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this simple incontrovertible truth.

 

Um.... no. Atheism is the disbelief in a personal god, theism. The notion of a non-theistic afterlife is independent from the notion of god.

Your argument fails because you are connecting invisible dots that are not really connected anywhere but your mind. Being wrong isn't a bad thing, just accept it and move on.

 

For purposes of this argument you may theorize this. But invariably atheists will tell you that death is the end of being,
in reality.

Wow! I'm really shocked you would claim this roll. Because it's just an absolute tenant of atheism that life ends when you draw your last breath. There is nothing after death....nothing!
I've heard it claimed over and over and over and
I have no doubt the many atheists that roam this section will also try to make your claim (with equal non success).

 

You are diverting the attention of the debate. You are yet to draw a line from ghosts to god. The two are separate ideas. Ghosts could exist without god. God could exist without ghosts.

Draw a line.

 

Agh, that woud be deism, atheists don't believe in any Gods - period.

Your arguement fails because you are trying to change definitions to fit your preconceptions - fundamentally ignoring the facts. That is a pretty serious weakness in a logical arguement BTW.

 

Not because you just say so.

You are claiming that ghosts do not require God? Well, lets see your evidence and alternate source?

Pretty eeasy to walk around findin excuses to deny - much harder to solve. Perhaps why so few atheists do it.

 

Leaving aside the gratuitous insult which starts the post, you have said you do not know of any conceptions of mortal creator gods, well, Wong pointed yoy at about 100 examples - there you are!

Your statement of faith is not pertinent to the point, besides everybody here knows it already, as various threads are cluttered with statements of dogma - which are not to be confused with arguments.

 

1; someone claiming to have seen a ghost, which is the only "detection" that has ever happened, is not proof that they exist....

2; Even if they do exist, all it proves it that the Ethereal Plane exists. If you do not know what the Ethereal Plane is, I'll explain. There were cultures who beleive that all living things who die travel to another plane of existence parallel to our own. This plane is called the Ethereal Plane. It touches and crosses the Material Plane (our world), and ghost sightings are merely creatres of the Ethereal Plane crossing into ours, for a short time. These believes have nothing to do with God or any divine being. So your assumption that the existance of ghosts proves that god exists is already debunked.

 

Leave out the first sentence, and the argument stands.

The notion of afterlife does not depend upon the existence of a god.

Yosh still needs to adress this.

 

It's curious that a sentence started with the operative "if", is declared to be the "incontrovertible truth". lol

No, Yosh, it is not an universal belief of atheism that physical death means the end of consciousness - as has been pointed out in several comments earlier.
And you have as yet to 'prove' or at least plausibly argue that ghost appearences are caused by "souls" which transcended death - just stating it to be so, or claiming it is obvious to all but idiots, are not valid 'arguments'.

 

The BIGGER LOL is see how many atheists statements begin with that little word "if". You see, an atheist cannot make a positive statement about God, because that would be accepting the existence of God. Such statements coming from atheists like "If god exists" or "if free will exists". LOL LOL LOL.

 

So do you.

Thesis is obvious ... support ... not so much.

 

If you read my earlier post, you would realize that there are cultures that believe in a plane of existence that the dead travel to without the need of any divine being.