Hard Core Catholicism

The theme last week at Mass was forgiveness.

The message was this: "You must forgive others, even our worst enemies, if you want your sins forgiven."

It was the 10th anniversary of 9/11 and the priest mentioned that.

What he did not say directly, but said between the lines, was this:

"We must forgive the perpetrators of 9/11 if we want our sins forgiven."

I wish he had said it directly, because he would have woken a lot of people up.

This is Catholicism at its hardest core. This is the part of Catholicism that the outside world can't understand.

This is why it's very hard to be a good Catholic. This teaching is much more difficult to follow than the teaching against birth control. This teaching is much more difficult to follow than the teaching against divorce.

I mean, how many of us really forgive those who hurt us?

 

I try to.

I can't say I do every time because it's a very, very hard thing to do, but I try. Sometimes it can seem like I'll never forgive the person who did me wrong, but most of the time when someone hurts me and i feel that way I go to God about it, and he helps me to get over those feelings. It's so much better when you do to. It makes you feel better about things.

 

I have a slightly different take on this and it has to do with what I've been taught over and over again is the central focus of holy Mass.

The Eucharist.

You see, protestants center their church service around the sermon. If the sermon is good, they are blessed. If the sermon sucked, they leave empty handed. Pastors have to be entertaining, dynamic, funny, and over all great orators. Such is not the case for us.

I tell noncatholics that the best way to understand the Catholic faith is to see at its center the Blessed Sacrament. It is the creciendo and crowning achievement of the sacrifice of the mass. Everything else points to it, builds up to it, and finds fulfillment in it. The miracle of transubstantiation should drop our jaws in speechless awe every time we approach the holy altar.

The priest presiding over the elements can be the most boring stiff with absolutely no people skills. He can be grumpy and his homilies underwhelming. The homily isn't the focus, the Eucharist is.

And now coming back full circle to your post. I believe that the biggest problem with Catholics is not coming to Mass with the reverent titillation that they are about to have a physical encounter with the risen Christ. Solve this problem and many other problems are solved with it. How can anyone who has held and tasted the real presence of Christ not leap at the chance to forgive their enemies and show them the same mercy they have received? How can anyone in a blessed state of grace, filled with God's spirit, hold a grudge against his fellow man? If people really understood the majesty and wonder of the Blessed Sacrament, nobody would have to explain to them the concept of forgiving their enemies.

That's my view on this.

 

My thoughts on this are rather... difficult to explain. I agree with you on many points in this post. It's excellent, and I think that it's truly inspired in many ways. However, I think that what a pastor or teacher says about that religion is equally important to listen to, especially for people who don't understand. Sometimes, understanding doesn't come easily to people, and it takes some time for them to honestly understand. In that time, what the pastor says is more important to them, and in that case this does become a hard problem for people. I think that in regards to people who are not truly converted or understanding of Christ and his sacrifice for us need to understand that they need to try - honestly try - and ask God for help. I am certain that if you plead with him to help you he will. Why would he not? He wants you to understand.

 

Lots - every day.

...

But let me tell you somethjgin else because I think it's important do so: In case Germany would not be able to forgive the USA the results of World Wars 1+2 then Germans had to erase the USA from this planet - and I'm sure Germans would be able to do so if we really would like to do so. On the other side: If the USA had known that this forgiveness would had not been possible then she had to erase in a kind of preemptive strike all Germans from this planet when the USA had the chance to do so in World War 1+2. Perhaps the different forms of beliefs are expressing very good war crimes in some cases. And the common belief in Jesus Christ and his teachings makes it possible to be friends with people who were enemies once. Similiar teachings of Buddha and others helped in Japan and/or Vietnam and other crazy situations of a self made world history.

But - what was the intention of 9/11? What was the reason that someone did not forgive the USA - what was the crime what could had caused this barbaric act? I don't think it's really oil or real crimes the USA had done what could need a place for forgiveness, revenge or compensation. The intention was and is it to erase the whole western world from this planet. Nothing less. The USA is the strongest part of the western world. This attack was a symbolic act against the economy of the western world (WTC) - against the military structure of the western world (Pentagon) and against the politcal institutions of the western world (flight 93). The attack came from Saudi-Arabian-Wahabits - also known as Taliban in Pakistan and Aghanistan. We could call this sect somehow "the strange heart of the Islam" because the most Muslims in this world are sunnits (Arab speaking populations and Turk speaking populations) some are shiits (Persians).

Now I have a problem: What to forgive? Who has to forgive whom what ecactly? Forgiveness needs concreteness. It's not an abstract thing. 9/11 for example I came home and my wife said to me "Sit down - I have a bad news" And then she told me that my mother had called her some minutes ago and she fears there's something very wrong with her brain. She had told her a story that someone crashed with two aeroplanes in the twin towers of the WTC-building in New York - one aeroplane in each tower. My wife feared it has something to do with her traumata from the time she grew up in world war 2. Maybe a brain insult or something like this. It's perhaps better to call a doctor.

Let me ask you: Are you able to forgive a brain insult?

http://youtu.be/Ljm5225B_cg

 

I can understand why people couldn't forgive. I don't know if I could forgive someone who hurt me so badly.

But if you did forgive those who hurt you, does that also mean putting aside your judgment for Islam, and not fearing or hating its people?

 

I would think so, to a point. After all, you cannot stop judging people. You should, I believe, always judge people. Now I know that can make people angry when I say that, but let me continue. I think that everyone should be judged on what they do or day, or even look like sometimes, but you need to be willing to give up that judgment easily and quickly if you find that it's proven false. Does that make some sense?

In the case of Islamic peoples, I believe that you should always treat relations with them with care at first, because you don't know where they stand, but hating them or holding a grudge against them. Like judging, you need to have caution, but always be willing to change what you think.

 

Actually its from Scripture.. God forgives us because we forgive others and we are also taught to pray to soften the hearts of our enemies..

That's not Catholicism.. That's Christiabity.

 

Matt 5:44..

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

See? Its NOT just Catholic.

 

To your first statement, thank you for being brutally honest. Forgiveness isn't genuine if it isn't difficult to come by. If you insult me, I can forgive you as easily as I can take my vitamins. But if you were a close friend and betrayed me in an intimate way, it would be far more difficult, nay impossible, without divine help.

To your second statement, there is nothing wrong with judging Islam for the evil religion that it is. Even today they oppress women, bury their daughters alive for the "crime" of dating a nonmuslim, hang men for being homosexual, stone women for adultery, and in general impose a strict theocracy that kills the human spirit and makes people live daily in fear. It is an evil religion and we are called by holy Scripture to "detest the evil, cling to what is good" (Romans 12:9). This isn't a forgiveness issue.

 

Thank you for clarifying your last statement that seemed to drive a wedge between Catholic and non Catholic Christians.

 

Some posters are simply ridiculous..........

BTW.. I am not Catholic.

 

I read a story about a famous 19th century English evangelist who was vacationing in Rome and visited the Vatican. He talked with a Cardinal while there who was impressed with the evangelist's knowledge of scripture, and made the comment, "You should be a Catholic."

The evangelist smiled and replied, "I am a catholic, just not a Roman Catholic."

The word 'catholic' meaning universal, as in the universal church of the followers of Jesus Christ.

 

Yes... I know Catholic means universal, but I happen to be Protestant.

 

Well, "I" happend to be a Christian, since I'm not 'protesting' anything....

 

Real forgiveness is effortless, because what it consists of for humans is letting go of resentment or forbearing to resent in the first place. Accomplishing the first is no more challenging than letting go of a hot potato; yet if you think that potato is a gold nugget, it is just as hard to let go of as is letting go of resentment that one secretly enjoys because of the feeling of moral superiority that goes with it - which feeling one can also experience by "forgiving" as if to absolve the offender by way of one's own goodness.

 

Forgiveness is a conscious decision not to hold one's sin against them, and believers have the 'power' of forgiving sins.

As was said earlier about the Lord's Prayer: "....Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.."

And:

Mark 11:25-26
"And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him and let it drop (leave it, let it go), in order that your Father, Who is in heaven, may also forgive you your (own) failings and shortcomings and let them drop.

But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your failings and shortcomings. "

It is not only for the offender but for the one who has been offended in moving on with a peaceful life....

I'm 'preaching' this msg to myself as well, as we all need to hear it over and over again. It does get easier to forgive as one practices the principle in life, but I know of nobody who has 'arrived' (as they say) in this life as of yet...

 

I'm not so sure. For average everyday things, it is certainly quite easy, and should be, to forgive. But when someone has been truly hurt by what someone else has done, especially if the person who has done it is not sorry - such as the Terrorists in 9/11, it makes it harder to let it go. It's human nature to want revenge, and often that is so ingrained in them that they have to honestly try to forgive them. If the person is sorry for the grievance, it does make it easier, however.

 

The question you shud ask is how much do you 'like' yourself? Do you love yourself enuf to forgive and move on with your life; or will you 'allow' the offender and the offense to saddle you with continual victimization, where you live the remainder of your life as a miserable person.

Forgiving for the Christian is not an option, but a commandment..

 

If it's not an option, how can it be a decision?

In the sense that they're free of the compulsion to judge, maybe, but not in the sense of absolution for the offender.

No, it's an INhuman nature which attends us from birth and gains a foothold in our psyche the first time, having been reviled, we revile again, outwardly or otherwise.

 

The decision is whether or not to be obedient to the word of God.

John 20:23:
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

 

Non-responsive. Besides which, if you love God, there is no decision to be made, since you acknowledge that He is the Decider.

Whatever that means, it was said to a certain set of Apostles; and I would suggest that no one of lesser spiritual stature presume to invoke it.

 

I've always believed that forgiveness, like vengeance, is Gods to dole out.

God forgives us when we SEEK his forgiveness. How do we even begin to forgive someone who doesn't seek it then?

I am Catholic.

 

YOU forgive whether they seek forgiveness or not.. If you can't forgive others, God can't forgive YOU.

 

I'm sorry, but both or your retorts are meaningless.

One must know God and follow by being obedient...."obedience is better than sacrifice." Disobedience may lead to the wrong decision. We still have free will in regards to following His words.

And we as modern day followers and the body of Christ are also referred to thru out the NT scriptures as 'saints." One does not have to die to be a saint! That term is used also as 'Holy Ones,' as those who follow Christ---aka "Christians, meaning 'little Christs.'

Going back to the scripture:

John 20:23:
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

In Catholic doctrine and the sacrament of penance, their definition is: " Absolution is the form of prayer or words the priest pronounces over us with uplifted hand when he forgives the sins we have confessed. It is given while we are saying the Act of Contrition after receiving our Penance."

The afore mentioned scripture and James 5:16 that says, "confess your sins to one another" are the basis of the Catholic confessional. The priest is the one who forgives the confessor's sins (go and sin no more) in their doctrine. Which is scriptural with the exception of :

1 Timothy 2:5: Ampl
"For there [is only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,"

i.e. we dont need 'another man' go-between to reach God, but can directly approach His throne by petitioning our requests "in the name of Jesus," our mediator & advocate.

That is one of about 20 scriptures (including papal infallibility) that have made me, raised Roman Catholic, no longer a follower of that denomination, but per scripture, "The day will come when true worshippers worship in spirit and in truth."