Hate Speech

Of course you offer no counter facts to backup your opinion.
Facts will never convince those who want to remain uninformed.

 

All districts within a state have to follow state guidelines.

Not all districts have the same money to spend on education. Since most districts are funded by local tax dollars.
Poor districts have much less money/student to spend.
If the state mandates certain classes, hours, or recess time, then the state should provide funding equally to all districts to fund them.

What reason is there for cutting PE or recess? Funding was just one thing I could think of.

Why don't you explain the Prussian model? You keep bringing it up as if everyone knows that model or how or how it's not adopted.

 

Yes, there is a disparity in spending between low income and high income districts. Many states don’t weight formulas to get extra funds to districts with low local property tax revenue. And even in the same districts, different schools can have disparities in funding. That’s a problem for states to address.

My point is more to do with the purpose of “education” than minutiae in funding policy.

Frederick the Great (FG) was a monarch who was pragmatic enough to figure out the route to success in war torn Europe for powers without pre-existing colonial holdings was to extract more power from citizens. He devised a system where geo-political power could be generated from within the country by leveraging elite’s power over the working class into efficient government bureaucracy and a powerful military industrial complex based economy. The heart of the system was what we now call the Prussian education model.

It’s a compulsory system where all children of both sexes are education in a homogeneous method so society is composed of citizens who think, act, and obey uniformly. This allows bureaucracies to function with less direct control from the king or other central authority. This allows wars to be conducted without citizen soldiers questioning the motives or methods of wars. It allows elites access to hordes of working class folks trained to follow schedules, protocols, workplace norms (sitting at a desk, making widgets, regular work hours, etc.) so economies can be most efficiently milked for tax dollars and goods government needs to survive and expand (the military industrial complex).

The Prussian model emphasizes conformity. Rows of desks, uniform class period lengths, all students expected to learn through the same methods of instruction (lecture, repetition, standardized testing), and uniform teacher training. The emphasis on conformity is to ensure social cohesion through subjugation to authority. Authority of the king, religion, other form of government or a combination of the three. The model was successful. It led to expansion of FG’s dream to the point eventually Germany leveraged the model to conquer most of Europe (the Blitzkrieg and the prosecution of WW2 by Germany was made possible only through application of the Prussian education model). Fealty to the state is emphasized by the Prussian model. This can manifest in pure nationalism or be more targeted allegiance to government itself as I’ve already gone into with comments on education fostering dependence on government for emotional as well as physical needs.

The Prussian model of education is the foundation of modern government/business partnerships/collusion. Frederick the Great ensured the elites retained control of the “educated” population by making the basic education and deference to authority training “free” and compulsory. Children of elites went on to pay to play tertiary education where they learned to innovate and take advantage of the trained, conditioned workforce. This of course continues today with Ivy League institutions producing the vast majority of elites in society. The rest of society is conditioned through the Prussian model to accept the authority of elites (the “experts”, politicians, big business).

In a nutshell, the Prussian model creates citizens with enough knowledge/skills to supply labor, but not enough to generally move up in class. It creates citizens useful to government and elites, but not educated enough to understand what’s going on. And it creates citizens happy enough to defer to authority even if someone tells them what’s going on.

Nearly every American has been subjected to the Prussian model of education for at least 12 years, some for longer. Apparently, folks spend 12 years in a system they don’t know anything about after those 12 years. That is proof the system works well in fostering conformity and fealty. Public schools of course are classic examples of the Prussian model. But as I pointed out, private schools also follow the Prussian model. Religion may take the place of first allegiance over the state, but the goal is the same—uniformity in thought and action of the product.

When I mentioned priorities earlier I mean the top priority of the Prussian model we use is conformity. It’s not literacy, math proficiency, or resilience in the face of bullying. This is why there is always enough funding to ensure instruction in social engineering even if there isn’t enough for anything else. It’s why exercise is not a priority. Kids that can’t handle sitting for hours doing exactly what they are told aren’t going to fit into our planned society anyway. We medicate little boys with meth so they can sit still for training. Never mind most aren’t evolutionarily equipped to deal with that learning model, especially without some exercise time. We need conformity at any cost, even a few suicides here and there.

I hope that helps a bit with understanding the Prussian model of education. The US isn’t as hardcore with the system as say Nazi Germany. But it depends on how you look at things. We have created a society that has bombed and or invaded over 30 countries since WW2 and doesn’t care. We have created a society with fealty to and dependence on government that our founders hoped would never exist. To bring us full circle to the OP, a society with such dependence on government we look to government for emotional support when people say things we don’t like. And the Prussian model of education is how we got here.

 

Data is what constitutes "facts". The conclusions drawn from that data is opinion. You seem to be confusing the opinion part as being fact.

They draw the conclusion that innocent Black people are significantly more likely to face wrongful convictions than innocent white people, because the given data says that black prison exonerees outpace their white counterparts. Undoubtedly, if the results showed white prison exonerees outpacing their black counterparts, the narrative would then be that innocent black people are not exonerated nearly as often as their white counterparts.

No matter the numbers, it can ALWAYS be spun as if the given data shows systemic racism.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

I am not necessarily saying that I think blacks do not face more wrongful convictions ( that is certainly very plausible and maybe even likely), rather I am commenting on the reality that no matter what the data says, they will spin it to imply that it is due to systemic racism. At some point, it becomes like the boy who cried wolf.

 

Conclusions we're stated.
Based on facts and data.

Sure one can ignore it if they wish and draw a different conclusion/ opinion.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
As those who dislike facts often do.

If you think the data was soun, show your work where you see the facts differently.
And how "they", got it wrong.

 

T

There's a lot to chew on in your post.
The Prussian model of teaching may have been employed in USA after WW2? Or during the cold war with Russia?
The USA installed a lot of things to rally all Americans, including children to rally for America and against communism.

It seems to me that Prussian model of teaching has changed over the decades in schools.
Sure, the desks in rows and class schedules still remain. I don't see a better method.

In recent decades, there have been many changes to how math, reading, and writing are taught. Some effective, some flat out failures.
But I don't see the education system gearing all students towards a 1 size fits all program. I think they've realized that doesn't happen.
There has been classes geared to special needs students and there's classes for accelerated learners.

I agree that we tried to take down the fidgety kids with drugs, something I am extremely opposed to. Kids do need to run, jump, and play to burn off energy. Get dirty.
What happens to kids who have been on mind altering drugs as kids but as teens, decide they don't want them anymore?
Or even as adults.
But I don't take the drugging of kids to mean we want kids to be reliant on the gov't. Just want them to not be disrupting class time.
In fact, IMO, the rebellion of the 60s hippies was a result of this prussian model against conforming to gov't and society and to be free and think for onseself.
Same with the women's lib movement.
Our society has been moving away from gov't demands and reliance on them.

I went to a vocational school and to a University.
Once out of the primary school system the methods of teaching do change. Sure there's still the desks and class schedules. But at the 2ndary education there was a lot more emphasis on critical thinking skills.
Although, I was geared towards the engineering world in my studies where critical thinking is required to find innovative solutions after learning the core basics of math and physics.

I think even liberal arts education focuses more on thinking outside the box.
In my work environment, thinking outside the box was required. Find new and better ways to achieve results.

 

Yes, and those conclusions based on facts and data are opinions, which is precisely why in this case, no matter what the data says, they can spin it to derive that it is due to systemic racism.

Do you sincerely not understand the dynamic that exists between factual data and then the opinion of what that means in regard to the implications of that factual data?

 

You keep saying that. But you don't offer how the conclusions are wrong.
Just posting the word spin means nothing. What was spun and why do you think it was wrong?

I understand. But you need to show where the conclusion is faulty. Just saying so, does not make it so.

 

I keep saying it because it is 100% true and you keep acting as if it is not.

I am not alleging that the conclusion is necessarily faulty. What I am alleging is that it is an opinion. You are presenting that opinion as if it is a fact. The truth of the matter is, whichever way that data came out, that same source would amend their opinion so that the given data means systemic racism.

My statement on it has been very clear form the beginning. I will restate it once again because based on your replies, you clearly still do not understand my position...

They draw the conclusion that innocent Black people are significantly more likely to face wrongful convictions than innocent white people, because the given data says that black prison exonerees outpace their white counterparts. Undoubtedly, if the results showed white prison exonerees outpacing their black counterparts, the narrative would then be that innocent black people are not exonerated nearly as often as their white counterparts.

It very well may be that blacks are wrongfully convicted more than whites. I could very well see that being true. My position would be that the presented data does not prove that notion.

 

Black, Latino and white American imprisonment rate per 100,000 residents
A recent report from The Sentencing Project shows that Black and Latino Americans are incarcerated at a higher rate than white Americans. This graph demonstrates state rates of imprisonment by race and ethnicity, ranked by Black American incarceration.


...
The report cites a number of causes for racial disparity within U.S. prisons. According to the report, the nation's history of white supremacy over Black people created a legacy of racial subordination that impacts their criminal justice outcomes today.

The report also asserts that communities of color, especially Black Americans, are negatively affected by biased policies and practices including police-citizen relations, pre-trial detention, the weight criminal history records can carry in sentencing and unequal prosecutorial charging.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...-racial-disparities-in-us-incarceration-rates

 

...and you think this is relevant to our conversation how exactly?

 

100% true according to you. I disagree with you.
I showed my data, source and link. Show where the conclusion is wrong. Until you do, I will continue to disagree with you and your opinion.
Show data where white prison exoneress outpace black ones and then you have a legit counter argument. As of now, you're presenting an argument based on nothing.

Present your data and then the discussion of which study is correct or more accurate can take place.

 

J

Just more evidence and studies to be ignored.
The discussion has been how blacks are treated worse due to past systemic racism. Even current systemic racism that is being done overtly.

 

So when you see more blacks in prison, your conclusion is NOT that there are more blacks committing crimes as evidenced by the most dangerous areas being overwhelmingly black and there are far more blacks being victimized by crime, but instead you conclude that this is just systemic racism and if that racism didnt exist, they would have identical rates of incarceration.

Okaaaaaay. I guess this is what is meant when they say that when you are a hammer, EVERYTHING looks like a nail.

I have no desire to argue your opinion and how you see this new statistic as racism or not. In your attempt to turn the conversation into that, you have further illustrated my point which is that no matter what the factual data says, your conclusion will seemingly always be that it is due to racism as opposed to a difference between races.

 

Not my conclusion.
You see, I posted links to stories about studies.
I do tend to agree with those conclusions based on the studies the stories talk about.

You just seem to read them, do you? and automatically assume they are wrong.
No reason why. No data or links to present a reason why they are wrong.

You just assume that since the black neighborhoods that have been decimated by systemic racism putting them into poverty with bad education conditions and very little job opportunities, means that all those in the justice system all fit into some same box.
That is this group is bad, then all in that group are bad. That is covert systemic racism to a TEE.

And the exoneration rates being higher among blacks is a result of this covert systemic racism because being black is lumped into all things bad about black.
Regardless of each individual.

This discussion is a perfect example why we still have covert systemic racism. It's ingrained into some people's minds.

 

Of course you do.

I am not sure why you continue with this? I have long since made my point, I see no reason to keep repeating it over, and over, and over....

 

You have made NO point. It is you continuing with this.

I also see no reason to keep going over this. Since you won't ever back up anything you claim. So it is assumed you are just making up what you post.

 

It makes no sense to use a seven syllable two word term when a single syllable word is even more descriptive and accurate. I'm not willing to call a trans woman she because it is neither descriptive nor accurate. I assume here that the term trans woman refers to a male wishing to be a female. I might have that backward.

 

You are fooling no one.

.....other than perhaps yourself. It is all there in black and white.

 

The Prussian model was introduced to the US by Horace Mann in the 1830-40s in Massachusetts. The rest of the US followed suit in short order. The effectiveness of the model is more apparent in certain situations. During hot and cold wars the effects on conformity of thought and action are often more apparent. Covid demonstrated the effectiveness of the model better than anything in my lifetime.

There is no better method for creating fealty to the state and conformity of thought.

If you wanted to teach math specifically better, you would teach some students with the lecture, repetition, test method. You would teach some kids using practical application inside their specific interests. For example, kids with an interest in chemistry will learn math best practically applied to chemistry. Those interested in building robots or cabinets will learn math best by applying math to those interests. The Prussian model serves a minority of students well—those that like strict structured lecture, repetition, standard test methods. The rest of the kids are getting a sub par education based on how they learn best. Evolutionarily, most kids learn better hands on with practical application , not through lectures and tests. But the Prussian model is best for creating conformity and deference to authority no matter how the three R’s are taught.

What has changed specifically? We still lecture, encourage repetition, recitation, and test. We still have structured, uniform sedentary class periods. Sure, we may get new textbooks or go to iPads instead of books or try common core math. But nothing really changes about the Prussian model. Accelerated and remedial classes are structured on the Prussian model. The remedial classes probably have a higher percentage on meth.

The Prussian model is a one size fits all model when it comes to conformity training. That’s the point. Remedial, accelerated, and “normal” classes are all going to produce people with fealty to government and who defer to the authority of elites (medical “experts”, scientists, politicians, big business, media). And elites need illiterates and literates as cogs in specific wheels, so at the end of the day the actual level of education attained is irrelevant.

I provided a couple studies earlier that explained why the Prussian model is used. It has nothing to do with the best way to educate kids about math or literature. It’s all about creating a citizenry that is easy for government and elites to control and exploit. Most countries implemented Prussian education when the government is under threat of overthrow or loss of control/influence.

Citizens are told it is implemented to help individuals become successful (as you were told). But the true goal is to create citizens that make government and elites more successful.

Yes, occasionally there is some pushback. But it’s very temporary and involves small minorities. Some even oppose drugging kids to create conformity. But it’s a small minority. We have 5% of the world’s population but prescribe over 80% of the meth and other stimulants used for this purpose. It’s very important to us that kids conform, not that we reform education to fit their needs.

We are not moving away from reliance on government. Quite the contrary. The OP is opining we aren’t reliant enough on government for emotional needs. Government is attempting to get us completely dependent on them for “healthcare” (actually “sickness care” as health is not actually a priority).

The whole concept of intersectionality is designed to convince as many people as possible that they have no path to happiness or success without protection and emotional support from government.

Hippies rocked out to Pink Floyd, but sent their kids to schools that now have those kids begging government to increase minimum wage, force people into environmental practices individuals won’t undertake on their own, give them “free” healthcare, force disease mitigation practices, etc.

Sure, university education is a bit different. The box gets expanded a bit. But you aren’t taught to think outside the Prussian model box. You might be taught to look for solutions inside the building code box, but not outside that box. You are taught to come up with solutions to problems government identifies.

My university capstone class emphasized innovation and paradigm shifts in production agriculture. But the box of the Prussian model was never mentioned. Government depends on monoculture crop production and confinement feeding of meat animals to retain control on society through cheap food policy. We were encouraged to come up with innovations to increase corn yields or feed to gain ratios, but certainly not encouraged to transition to permaculture methods of production where decentralization occurs and people become less reliant on government for food and environmental controls. Permaculture would destroy the food supply control mechanism government spent decades implementing and simultaneously solve most environmental problems, putting government out in the cold.

University education has value, but it is also used to create conformity and fealty to authority. It doesn’t encourage thinking outside the real box.

 

I don't know how covid demonstrated that, at least in USA.
The fed gov't could do very little to control the spread. Except among fed employees or contractors.
They did shut down movement in and out of country also.

It would be better to teach math to specific interests. But 1st they must be able to do basics like add, subtract, multiply, and divide. Most kids may not know their specific interests until Jr high or later. One can't really do chemistry until one can learn basic algebra and formula manipulation.
I don't know how math is taught today, but I thought rigid leaning by repetition and even flash cards worked well. IE, I guess, by banging the concepts into ones brain.
I know that didn't work for some or even many. But it worked well for me. Memory repetition.
Having typed that outloud and reading it, some other method would work better for those who have problems with memory repetition.

How do elites become elites? If all go through the same regimental process of learning?
Or are you saying this regimental process creates the elites because they thrive on that style and the rest are then left to be those so called cogs.

Again, how do they become elites?
I was never told anything about the Prussian model or if I did at one time in life, I did not recollect it.

Kids can't be drugged unless the parents agree to it.
I had a son they wanted to put on ADD or similar drugs because he was fidgety in class. As I was as well. Got kicked out of catechism once because I was unknowingly tapping a pencil.
But we, wife and I, refused to put him on drugs and instead we focused real hard on helping him with homework.

Capitalism is still the basic model for our way of lives. With a level of socialism to place a floor on the number of people without food, shelter, and clothing.

min wage has been around near 100 yrs. It is $7.50/hr at fed level. It never increases until 90% of the population is already at some wanted level. All min wage does is bring the wages of the lowest of the lowest wage earners up to 90% of the population. As inflation has caused prices to increase. So increase the min wage or they need more welfare assistance to keep up with inflation.
So either the gov't pays the lowest of the lowest, the gov't does, or they go without some basic necessities.

I was in engineering. My courses taught me the basics and the ability to think so I could work in the Electronics field. Not to work for the gov't or the problems gov't thought needed to be solved.
In fact, through most of my career, very very very little was related to what gov't wanted. But what customers wanted.

Maybe the farming business is different. Especially as everyone needs food and it becomes for corperatized and less family oriented.

 

It’s hard to see what’s going on outside the box from inside the box.

Controlling the spread was never the goal. If controlling the spread has been the goal, the government would have implemented policy that followed science, not conflicted with science. The majority of COVID policies were just an adult version of the kid’s game “Simon says”. It was a test to see how well the Prussian model is working in the US. Seeing if people will follow advice based on known science isn’t a very good test of conformity and fealty to government. A much better test is to see if people will do things they are told to do even when those things are known to be incompatible with known science.

You can ask any first grader what their favorite subject is and get an answer. Kids don’t know what occupation they will end up in, but they certainly have easily identifiable interests. Someone gave me a well “used” kids chemistry set years before I knew what algebra was. I enjoyed what was left of it and simple math like multiplication and fractions were certainly part of the experience.

The Prussian model of lecture, repetition and testing worked for me as well. That’s why you and I ended up at university instead of dropping out of high school to mow lawns. The Prussian model was tolerable for us.

Most elites in this country are products of Ivy League type institutions. In those institutions people are taught how to leverage the Prussian model to their advantage as well as introduced to elite contacts that facilitate integration of new graduates into that societal tier.

I wasn’t told about it either while I was participating in the system. That would be very counterproductive to tell students they are being intentionally manipulated! I was lucky enough to have parents who encouraged personal independence and critical thought. I’ve been reading and thinking about the Prussian model for about a decade I suppose. I’m still discovering parts of myself that are not yet fully emerged from the box. I’m convinced that as long as one needs/wants things from government it’s impossible to get out of the box. It’s like substance addiction—you can’t be helped until you REALLY want out—all the way out.

Thanks for caring enough about your son to not take the “easy” way out. I believe you will all be glad you avoided the drugs. Yes, I believe parents still have to approve. And the vast majority accept the advice of authority figures without question and start the drugs straight away.

The Prussian model was developed in a monarchy. It’s used in democracies, dictatorships, capitalist economies, central planned economies, etc. Doesn’t matter. The purpose of implementing the model is control of society through conformity and subjugation of the population to authority.

Off topic, but helping people with food, shelter and clothing isn’t socialism, it’s redistribution of capitalism’s largess. It’s wealth redistribution, not socialism.

Yes, minimum wage law has been used to create dependence for a long time. Why make yourself more valuable to an employer when you can petition government to increase your compensation without you increasing your value to the employer?

Who were your customers? Let’s start there.

Ninety-seven percent of US farms are family owned and 88% are small operations. No, all businesses are pretty much the same. They are regulated and/or subsidized by the government to best serve government.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.
This topic we've been conducting is way OT. I think it's time to move on and stop the derail.

Sure. But likely the most stated answer will likely be recess. I know that was mine.

What other models are there that work in the world?
I should stop asking questions on our OT discussion.

I still believe, most Americans don't want to be relied on by the gov't.

Many do just take authority advice. I've always been anti authority.

Without some population control it would become anarchy.

It's still a needed function IMO. Hungry, homeless people have to be dealt with in some manner.

Since the min wage hasn't been raised in over a decade, I don't think relying on the gov't pays off very well.

Most were involved in the computer, IT, and power reliability world.

To some extent.

So with the last sentence, I will end this discussion in this thread.
Thx for the posts. I did learn something new.