I am a good person and I don't need a god for that

How do you know that nothing became something?

 

Nothing in our world suggests otherwise. All things have a beginning. All things have a cause for their existence. I could flip that question on you by asking; How do you know something always existed when we are limited in how far in the past we can see?

 

Oh, you believe in both, "speaking only of micro evolution, not macro, we can agree it's true" must have confused me.
Your "god of the gaps" certainly solved the problem of the origin of the universe, but I can wait to find out the origin without magical thinking.
So simple survival is your measure of superiority?

 

"He" used to be "she".

"God" is whatever man wants it to be.

 

I don’t know that either statement is true. I don’t think that it’s logical to say that a creator is “necessary” to cause everything to exist since that creator would also require a creator by that logic.

Just because I don’t know the correct solution to the mystery does not mean I have to accept the wrong solution. Sometimes I get to speculate though and it seems more logically consistent to me that the universe, whatever it is, has always existed. I wouldn’t really know though since I am such a small, almost non-existent thing in that universe.

 

The word "creator" could be swapped with the words "first cause" removing the religious aspect from the discussion. We observe causes in our universe and from that observation recognize that all things that come into existence have a cause. If you were to suggest that you saw something spring into existence spontaneously without any cause no one would believe you since it defies what our knowledge of the world teaches us.

The "first cause" of the universe, we exist in, obviously would not be anything of the universe it caused to exist, thus not invalidating my argument. This entity's existence is not depended on a cause itself because it operates under laws that don't exist in our system. We have no way of knowing (or imagining) those laws because it's outside of our known universe. The religious word for this universe is "the supernatural". A sphere of existence outside the sphere of "the natural" world which by its very nature must surpass ours if what exists within can cause a universe such as ours to exist.

Every belief must satisfy the believer or it doesn't rise up to the level of being justified. I'm not sure how one can call a solution, regarding the existence of a god, the correct one. I prefer calling it a workable solution. There are many mysteries when it comes to religious beliefs. Some that are revealed to us in this life, some that are promised to be revealed to us in a later life (according to the beliefs of Christians). For most Christians it's enough to know how to get the best out of the life we have now. The "afterlife" is beyond our grasp, so we might as well let it be something we hope will be satisfying more so than our life today.

 

Our universe exists because of a first cause caused by a cause that doesn’t need a cause because it is from a causeless system?

 

What evidence do you have that anything can exist uncaused? Give an example of something you've observed that can't/doesn't have a cause for being.

 

Aren't you the one positing the cause is caused by a cause without a cause?

 

You can't think of any examples. Got it.

 

That's right I do not know of an example, but you are the one saying the cause of the cause is uncaused.

 

Other than the fact that you mischaracterized my argument, it remains unchallenged by you. But at least you conceded that you can’t dispute it.

 

there are at least these two things that we are simply unequipped to understand. nothing, the total absence of space and time, and everything, the infinite. it has been theorized that our universe, which contains space and time, came into being from a point which could not have existed beforehand and that point has expanded and continues to expand into all we know and beyond. so yes, it is accepted by both the religious and the non-religious that the cause existed without a knowable cause. the only difference between the two is the matter of sentience, whether or not there was some plan. religions have evolved to the point they are at today because we seem to need a reason for our existence beyond the random chance offered by evolution. science does not require such an underlying reason. science, being nothing more than a form of inquiry, develops its own laws and does not look beyond its own stated goals.

science deals with the how, religion deals with the why. what i find odd is that the two seem to agree (to a certain extent) on the matter of creation.

 

So is it okay for people to kill babies IF GOD ORDERS IT or not? You keep dancing around that question.

 

“All things have a beginning. All things have a cause for their existence“

What caused the first cause? What caused it to exist? If it doesn’t need a first cause why does the universe need a first cause? What if the universe is its own first cause. What if the term ‘universe’ isjust as oversimplified and understated as the word ‘god’ is?

I identify as an agnostic atheist but I do so because in my opinion humans lack the intellect to understand the limitless light that is reality or the universe. There is no god because the term god is as basic as putting a pair of googly eyes on a cucumber and naming it Willy. People who think they commune with god are like a child at a puppet show pretending they know Pinocchio. Trying to reason out a beginning to the universe when we know of no such thing is also trying to limit the limitless light. Ultimately, reality, god, the universe, the limitless light, (whatever absurd term we try to pin on “it) has no definition that words can describe.

What do Christians know? They look into a book of spurious origin and use it to judge the world. There is some wisdom in there. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day but the main thing is to apply the mashed up moral codes of multiple ancient civilizations and pretend that their vague interpretation is better than everyone else’s vague interpretation. There are as many interpretations of “God’s word” as there are people who have read it. Probably more since a lot of people have an opinion about the Bible without having read it.

That being said I like some things about Christianity. At least Christianity teaches people the words ‘thank you’. Even if in practice Christianity has resulted in bloodshed and war it just shares the same failing as every other ideology. It has a lofty goal but it’s followers fall short of the mark, just like in every other ideology.

 

probably because it is a stupid question. you cherry-pick scripture, without bothering to look at it in historical context, in order to paint your target as evil. historically speaking, the slaughter of your enemies has been entirely justifiable throughout most of human history. even those we would consider innocents were fair game, as they could very well become tomorrow's enemies.

yes, there are folks out there that consider the bible to be historically exact, but even they look to the lessons learned and not the foibles of people long since turned to dust. for the most part, the faithful seek guidance from scripture and then do their best to adapt those lessons to modern day mores. even the most fundamentalist/literalist recognizes that society changes. why don't you?

 

Feel free to provide the "historical context" that made it okay to murder these children

 

if you bothered to read my post and have even the slightest knowledge of world history you'll see that i already have. perhaps you're time would be better spent learning about the world around you than picking nits on an internet forum.

 

At its worst, people have read the stories from the Bible and used it to justify genocide. The Boers of South Africa for example considered themselves to be chosen people, like the Israelites, and felt they were given the land and that their duty was to kill all the native inhabitants of that land. At its best, people can read the Bible and find cause to forgive their enemies and become grateful and peaceful. Anti-slavery movements are founded in Christian belief for example. You can read it and find cause to become arrogant and racist. You can read it and find cause to be benevolent and kind. The reason why is because both of those things are in there.


The terrible things depicted in the Bible are not just foibles of flawed men. God himself orders genocide and uses killing of massive groups of people to “cleanse” the earth in these fictional stories. People justify that by saying god has sovereignty over the earth and humanity to order these things but there is a huge problem with that: it’s humans who are writing these things down; it’s humans deciding who gets killed; it’s humans doing the killing. No one has heard the voice of god commanding these things because no one has heard the voice of god. And if this god is so terrible that he only makes his voice known only to the precious few who exhort people to do his will and leaves it to the vast majority to turn off their intellect in slack jawed credulity then he is not a god I am interested in knowing.

 

Our universe is governed by "laws". One law, being, that all that exists had a cause. The "first cause" exists separate from that which it caused to exist of our universe. This means simply that nothing about the "first cause" has any elements of that which it caused to exist. Thus the terms "natural" vs "supernatural" worlds is used to differentiate our world from that of the "first cause". You can't really describe something that isn't part of your universe. How could you? So we use terms like "first cause" or for the theist -- God. An entity that doesn't depend on our world for it's existence and thus not governed by our physical laws.

 

It helps to know and understand what the subject of the entire Bible is about; that being the Redeemer --Jesus Christ. That subject begins in Genesis 3:15 with the "promised seed". Everything from that point up to Acts is about probation; Acts being the pivoting point to man's redemption being revealed when the 12 Apostles received the gift of the Holy Spirit (which Adam lost due to his disobedience). Jesus made that gift possible by being the perfect sacrifice (the sacrificial lamb of the Exodus). He gave up his physical life so mankind could have a spiritual life. Just as the blood on the doors of Israelites saved them from death, so also does the blood of Jesus save us from spiritual death.

I don't think it's necessary to turn off your intellect when becoming a believer.

 

Yes, in other words we are just guessing about the creation of the universe. So far, it is beyond our comprehension but that does not stop our imagination and people come up with things like the first cause's "existence is not depended on a cause itself because it operates under laws that don't exist in our system". If god of the gap fills your mystery hole and you're satisfied, so be it, but be aware it is an evidence free guess.

 

There is an abundance of evidence that all that exists in our universe had a cause for it becoming. You can cite no examples for uncaused things and yet you believe it could be. That's strong faith devoid of reason/logic.

 

You misunderstand. For anyone who believes in the Bible, the almost certainly believe that infanticide is wrong TODAY, but they also believe that it USED to not only be okay, but morally mandatory. Hence why I'm saying there is no basis there for saying that infanticide is objectively evil.

 

As much as I despise some of the evils preached in the Bible, there's still a good bit of good in there, and there's no denying that it has had a massive (perhaps the most massive) influence on our literature. I regard many of the books as great works of literature in themselves.