Is anti trans all Christianity?

On this I would say you are wrong. Most Christians are accepting, at the very least in that they accept that others can choose to do other than

 

I actually don’t care what people personally accept or don’t accept. My actual concern is that people will not welcome or allow certain groups to have rights or lead the lives they want “in pursuit of happiness,” will lack human empathy, and would not prevent a demagogue political leader to cause real damage to the civil rights of others. I can respect opposing views so that’s not what my concern is.

 

Read thread title. Islam is a religion. Islam is practiced in the United States.

 

I have been to a lot of churches and I disagree. I have repeatedly been told that if I don’t vote a certain way, I am not a Christian. My sister allowed herself to be pushed into doing things she wasn’t comfortable with, donated the percentage she was told to, and was excepting god to bless her life, but her boundaries kept being tested by her church, and she came to regret doing things she was pushed into doing. Long story short, I think it was very destructive to her faith in god. I keep telling her she’s mad at Christians and not god. I haven’t lost my faith in god, but I connect with her feelings.

I knew another women. Her grandfather was a preacher, I think Baptist. He built a church with his own hands. After he died, she tried attending that church and upset the current preacher so much with her questioning and nuanced thinking, she grew to feel unwelcome at the church her grandfather built.

I am not sure if it’s were I am from or denominations I was exposed to, but that’s my experience. There’s a lot of pressure on conformity, rigidity, and thinking the right way. I should probably be open to trying a different denomination, IDK, but I think a lot of Christians should be willing to see their flaws in how they approach their beliefs and treat others who are honestly looking for god.

 

Islam in the US is nothing like it is overseas — poll after poll has shown they are more tolerant of LGBT people than Christians in this nation are.

 

Do you have a link to a few of these polls that you reference? I would be interested in seeing the details. It seems hard to fathom that there would be many polls on this subject but I will take your word on it.

 

Sure
Majority of U.S. Muslims Now Support Gay Marriage, While White Evangelical Christians Remain Opposed

 

Interesting.

However, this is specifically for same sex marriage, while you referenced the more expansive "tolerant of LGBT". I would love to see what you have on your more expansive statement. My curiosity is more about how would a poll be set up to measure the more expansive statement (what questions would be asked etc). There are a lot of factors assciated with tolerant of LGBT, and same sex marriage is but a tiny subset of that concept. For example, I would suspect you would have far more Muslims that believe they should be killed versus christians, although admittedly that number would be small for both religions.

Or are you referencing polls just for gay marriage, as that is more likely to simply be a measure of which religion has more Demcorats versus Republicans, where obviously far more Muslims are Democrat?

 

Gay marriage is a major point in the issue of gay rights and tolerance. If an individual believes gay people should have the right to marry the likelihood that they believe they should have all other rights is extremely high — just as the inverse is also true.

I disagree that it is a “tiny subset” seeing the battle this nation went through for them to obtain those rights from the evangelicals fighting it.

 

It is a major point indeed, but as I said above, such a question is more likely to measure are more Muslims Democrat versus Republican, and with your specific poll, it was Muslims versus Evangelical Christians which would even be a higher percentage that are Democrat in comparison. It is certainly not a secret that far more are Democrats.

The pure hatred that exists with some of Islam for gays ( such as wanting them killed), while no doubt far smaller here than in the middle east, I would bet is far higher here than what you would find with Christianity. This is why subjects other than gay marriage would be interesting to see. Do you have anything other than gay marriage or is gay marriage what you meant when you said "poll after poll" shows Muslims being "more tolerant of LGBT"? This is a sincere and legitimate question that measures vastly different endpoints.

If your point is that more Muslims in this country are Democrat than Evangelical Christians, well you will get no argument from me as that is a well-known and obvious reality. I am not pretending to know the results of polls if they do exist on the more expansine claim, but I would be interested in seeing them, which is why I asked.

 

I am aware of no poll that shows which group wants to kill gay people more. I am gauging tolerance to mean an equal application of rights and freedoms.

The average American Muslim wants that
The average American evangelical does not
According to these polls

 

In other words you are referencing polls that measure support for Gay marriage. There is no reason to dance around it. It is what it is. You are guaging tolerance by support for gay marriage. Nothing more, and nothing less. Various beliefs about equal application of rights go far beyond just support for gay marriage.

I dont equate that to the more general claim of being more tolerant in general. I was hoping you had info on that. Clearly you do not. I misunderstood your original meaning I guess.

FWIW...I am not religious, so I truly do not have a dog in this fight.

 

I have no clue if they are more tolerant in general only in the aspect of same sex rights, which they are.

 

You mean only in the aspect of support for gay marriage. Theoretically, there are far more ways that people could oppose same sex rights other than just gay marriage. An example would be a far smaller subset from both groups that might believe that gays should be thrown in jail. That would be relevant to same sex rights, but was not measured in your poll.

My guess would be that Muslims would have a far higher percentage of truly radical views on the subject, but I have never seen a poll on anything such as that.

 

nobody cares about gay marriage anymore.

 

every marriage in america was destroyed and now "nobody cares?"

gay marriage will soon go the way of abortion and tolerance in the military.
my advice to gays is to dig back into the closet for a few years or these christians will hurt you.

 

Why would anyone give 2 sh*** about the governments view of marriage? If you're a religious person then you get married in your church.

 

I've been to a lot myself. I grew up United Methodist, and there are UM churches I will never set foot in again. I spent 10 years in the Navy and I've been to all kinds of different denominations in my travels. There are churches of pretty much every denomination that I will gladly go to again (assuming they haven't changed) and others that I shun (with the same limitation). I no longer go to the church I grew up in because it has changed so much it no longer feel like home for me. But I have a very wide range of experience with various religions, both within Christianity and without (several pagan siblings). Here's something I've noticed. The tolerant Christians were not likely to go out and be loud about their position. They are also not likely to shove their religion outside of the church into the public view. At most you might notice a cross or a religious shirt or something. But the intolerant ones were almost always vocal and demanding others follow their way, and wanting laws to force others to follow their way. Only when I started paying attention to the actual numbers of each type instead of the frequency of exposure, did I realize that the intolerant group was small but loud and drawing attention to themselves.

I do feel for your sister. My first wife was briefly involved with a church who position was that if you were not baptized in their sect, then you were not really baptized nor even a Christian. But I try not to let such minorities color my view of the whole.

 

It's not that your link is incorrect, it's your interpretation of it. The bottom line is they do not have an issue of understanding reality (i.e. delusion is not part of it). Their issue is how they feel about their body/gender. When somebody has a feeling or desire that is problematic, it may be a form of mental illness, but you cannot call a feeling or desire a delusion. Unfulfilled or unfulfillable desires lead to distress precisely because they are not delusional about it. Affirmation, to the extent that is feasible helps relieve that distress, and that is why it's the standard of care.

 

Muslims, by a margin of 51 percent to 34 percent, favor same-sex marriage, compared to just four years ago when a majority, 51 percent, were opposed

Wow. I am surprised by that and I know a lot of Muslims too. I have been to a mosque many times, even participate in Ramadan because many of them are family.

 

can 2 people of the same sex be married in an Islam wedding?

 

I feel confident saying the majority of American Muslims don’t want gay people killed. I am around a lot of Muslims, and I don’t think they approve of homosexuality, but that’s far from thinking they want to personally kill gay people. I saw a group of gay guys hit on a Muslim Pakistani guy I know. He was calm and respectful. It didn’t cause him to get angry and espouse hatred.

 

This is a debate that exists beyond the conversation that you and I are having. You do not get to simply dismiss the opposing side of this debate by simply saying it is not a delusion.

It just so happens that I spent many years selling an atypical antipsychotic, which means that I have spent countless hours discussing various symptomatology with psychiatrists and how best to treat those various symptoms. I am not saying this to insist that my opinion is correct, but it does mean that my opinion is an informed one.

A feeling is most certainly the very essence of a delusion. It is literally a false belief despite evidence to the contrary. A common delusion would be that the FBI is tracking their every move. This IS a feeling. It is a belief. Where are you getting this notion that delusion is not a feeling? That does not make any sense.

As far as saying that my interpretation is incorrect.....the relevant statement is "Many trans people have felt since birth, or at least a very young age, that they were born in the wrong body" My statement was that they believe they are a man in a womans body or vice versa, and your statament was it is more about what they want than what they believe. How are you asserting that the above statement supports your position and refutes mine?

I do not disagree that what they want is a component, but that "what they want" is typically predicated upon the notion of what they believe which is that they are in the wrong body and they are seeking to correct that situation.

Once again, if you have something that backs up your position, by all means provide a link and we can discuss it, but I am not going to have you look at my link which supports my position 100% and then let you simply say I am misinterpreting that link which says precisely what I have said on this subject. Your position at this point is bizarre.

 

My goodness, if I had said that the majority of American Muslims want gays killed, you would have a great point. Since I said no such thing however, you are arguing against a point that was not raised which once again, is a TEXTBOOK strawman argument. This is becoming habitual. You continually put a false argument into my mouth via implication, and then easily knock down that false argument that you just put in my mouth ( the strawman)

You are new here and I assume you are not doing this on purpose, but you are doing it nonetheless. It is a disingenuous debate technique/logical fallacy that you will find used a lot in political debate.