Is Atheism a logical belief?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by The Last American, Oct 29, 2021.

  1. The Last American

    The Last American Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2021
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    692
    Trophy Points:
    93
    As I understand atheism and the creation of The Universe, there is absolutely no magical imaginary God/Creator/Higher Intelligence, and the process that led to the creation of all the matter in the incomprehensibly infinite Universe - all of the galaxies and solar systems and stars, and the quantum physics, and the fantastic diversity of life (that we know of), that created itself from combinations of dead molecules formed from atoms that all consist of different quantities and arrangements of the same exact protons, neutrons and electrons, led ultimately to humans that were once monkeys, that can now form extraordinary complex new ideas, and communicate those idea to other humans - just popped into existence one day, from absolutely nothing, in the middle of a void that did not previously exist, just because it wanted to?

    Where did the first spark that popped into existence, from absolutely nothing, in the middle of a void that did not previously exist, just because it wanted to, come from?

    Caveat - over time I am likely to want to revise the arrangement of my wordings etc., but time will run out for that here, so I ask that any respondents please focus on the Spirit of the question, exclusively.

    Where did First Cause come from?
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
    DennisTate likes this.
  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,956
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Excellent questions indeed....

    I got permanently banned from SciForums for beginning discussions like the following.

    Do you think that the gang there should have banned me for ideas like the following?

    String Theory, near death experiences, and the origin of Intelligence



    I wrote up a blog on this topic because I get into this general idea on so many different forums.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
  3. The Last American

    The Last American Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2021
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    692
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Thanks - lets try to keep this on topic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
    DennisTate likes this.
  4. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,956
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    My point is that the universe was designed, engineered, planned by a form of Intelligence that exists in what could be termed Energy from Quantuum Vacuum or.... as I think it can also be termed..... fundamental energy.

    So... I believe in a God / Creator / Great Spirit who in a sense learned or "evolved" and in humans who were invented / created..... and before those humans were made there were many levels and types of angels and / or alien life forms created.

    I am attempting to word Creationism in a way that is a little less offensive to Agnostics.

    And to answer your question.... no... Atheism is not truly logical... it depends on a believer being generally IGNORANT of String Theory, The Anthropic Principle, The Cyclic Model of the Universe / Multiverse and The Law of Probability.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
  5. The Last American

    The Last American Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2021
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    692
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I should have been more concise - my mistake, I apologize.

    The question is to atheists that believe there is no God/Creator/Higher Intelligence - where did first cause come from?
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  6. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    8,729
    Likes Received:
    4,051
    Trophy Points:
    113
    1. Why do you say "because it wanted to"?

    2. Atheism doesn't mean anything more that not believing in Gods. The idea of the universe coming into formation as you describe above is an additional understanding or belief that some atheists may also have. Other possibilities include that the universe grew out off an earlier universe, etc. There are many such possibilities.

    3. Creationists who gawk at the "how can all of this exist without there having been a conscious sentient creator??" and who point to the watchmaker analogy, very rarely stop to wonder how God himself came to be. He always was? He doesn't need a creator? This is special pleading.

    That assumes there was a first cause.

    It is also a question just as suitable for theists as it is for atheists. Where did the universe come from? What happened before the big bang? How did God come into existence? Etc
     
    JET3534, cd8ed, FreshAir and 4 others like this.
  7. The Last American

    The Last American Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2021
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    692
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I've never met a creation believer that gawks. I am very much wanting this discussion to remain polite and respectful.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,956
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Actually I love your questions.....
    and I think that a bit of misunderstanding makes the discussion more interesting for many readers.....

    I do give some credit to Richard Dawkins Ph. D. for his answer to this......

    Richard Dawkins Ph. D.: "Aliens Seeded Earth?"






    Richard Dawkins and aliens

    10,555 views
    May 9, 2010




    .... but... I do believe that Richard Dawkins Ph.D. being at least open to the idea of life and intelligence originating on another planet is a step in the right direction but.... ... is less logical than life originating in what I think would be termed in an extra-dimension of space - time..... as opposed to on another planet......

     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
  9. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    8,729
    Likes Received:
    4,051
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Aliens seeding the earth with life is possible, sure. But as Dawkins said, if that is true (and it is also possible it is false), those aliens had to also come from somewhere.

    Looking at fossil records, we can see how some now extinct animals mutated into common animals today. So if aliens did seed the earth with life, evolution by natural selection still proceeded from there.

    There are too many design flaw issues in life today for it to be plausible that a creator created present day life as it is.

    There is no reason for whales to have tiny leg bones, for our eyes to be wired backwards (as opposed to the better "designed" octopus eye) or for the laryngeal nerve in mammals to take such an odd detour, reaching 14 feet further than it needs to in a giraffe. There is a wild pig in God in Indonesia who grows horns that eventually curve backwards and puncture it's own skull killing it. And of course there are monstrous things like Guinea worms, parasitic wasps eating victims from the inside, snakes slowly swallowing live prey whole, etc.

    We can't be sure how life initially came to exist on Earth, but we can be confident it evolved from there, and we can be confident that no competent or ethical creator designed it as it now is.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
  10. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,956
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    I believe that Atheism.....
    indicates a bias toward a Carbon Based life form... thus the title of my blog....

    www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/



    I believe that Atheists are scared of the almost obvious implications of String Theory and the rapidity at which fundamental energy, (Energy from Quantum Vacuum), could well form new circuitry........ or synapses.... something along that line...... The origin of The Original Intelligence is somewhat like human scientists developing Artificial Intelligence...... not exactly the same situation..... but there are similarities.....
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
  11. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    8,729
    Likes Received:
    4,051
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Is the link accurate? I don't see anything about carbon there. Just a profile and a different post about something else.

    I don't see why you would think atheism had anything to do with presumptions that extra terrestrial life would be carbon based. It could be silicon based.

    Most scientists suspect it would be carbon based both because Carbon is so common in the universe and because we know that life does exist based on it.

    The vast vast majority of human beings, nevermind atheists, don't understand string theory. Even most scientists don't. But like quantum physics generally, it is often invoked by people who don't understand it (ie, Deepak Chopra) to sell all sorts of woo.
     
  12. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,848
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    atheists believe and claim there are no G/god(s), both positions are 100% frivolous and based in faith, not fact.

    They cannot tell you what is first cause, because they blindly believe what they believe and nothing will ever sway them from their 'faith'.

    I am agnostic, I reject the theory G/god(s) exist and I reject the theory G/god(s) do not exist because neither theory is based in established 'facts'. Therefore neither theory is grounded in logic, further it goes without the need to say neither theory is a 'logical' belief.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
  13. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    8,729
    Likes Received:
    4,051
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Fascinating, isn't it?
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
    Cosmo and DennisTate like this.
  14. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,848
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The biggest problem, as everyone can see, as far as atheists go, they are grammatically challenged which causes them a great deal of intense frustration, because they can never advance a debate to a point of a rational/logical fruitful/meaningful discussion. This frustration compels them to post their failed arguments from previous threads to every thread on the board in support of their unending proselytizing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
    DennisTate likes this.
  15. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,848
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    space-time is nothing more than a mathematical model of gravitational fields in relation to time. Its not an alternative universe, ie there are no parallel universes, ie 10 universes where 10 you's exist, one in each universe
    Spacetime - Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Spacetime

    In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model which fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional ...
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  16. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,956
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    All that I know is that these people who have near death experience accounts helped me to understand the Jewish and Christian scriptures in a far, far, far, far, far better manner than the Soul Sleep theory that I believed from 1972 to 1990 as I was taught by Evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong and his dad Pastor General Herbert W. Armstrong.




    https://near-death.com/george-ritchie-nde/



     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
  17. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,848
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In your 'opinion', based upon your 'limited' knowledge' who can say such things with any validity?

    It sounds like you are taking this back to the borg mentality that humans are automatons and have no choices.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
    DennisTate likes this.
  18. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,956
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    The link works for me...
    but some people get a message that the link is insecure.....

    Can you see the following half way down the page?

     
  19. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,848
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    well atheists are sure it did not come from any G/god(s), it sounds like you are conflating human physiological attributes (the creation of man) with human behavior (the creation of society, as it stands today).
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
    DennisTate likes this.
  20. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    8,729
    Likes Received:
    4,051
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Can anyone here other than the wise Kokomojo see any meani
    If a creator intentionally created animals on earth to be so poorly designed, or to be so brutal and nasty, that tells us a lot about the creator.

    That we can trace mutation lineages and see changes in fossils etc, and that there is mountains if other evidence that evolution takes place on earth, also would tell us a lot about any designer who makes all these changes pretending it is evolution.

    You think humans choose how life on earth evolved millions of years ago? Humans have had and still have some control over breeding of animals for human directed selection, but all evidence points to natural selection still occurring.
     
  21. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,956
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    This quotation from a near death experiencer may make Isaiah chapter fourteen and Ezekiel chapter twenty eight more understandable.




    Dr. Richard Eby’s NDE and the Second Coming of Christ
    BY KEVIN WILLIAMSPOSTED ON SEPTEMBER 26, 2019


    This fits with the related question of Young Earth vs Old Earth. I believe in Old Earth with a GAP between Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 1:2:


    Young earth vs old earth theory?


    ?
    Do you believe in a young earth or old earth theory?




      • *
        Old earth... up to five billion or so years old.
        26 vote(s)
        92.9%

      • A somewhat old earth... perhaps tens or hundreds of thousands of years old
        0 vote(s)
        0.0%

      • A relatively young earth.... less than twenty thousand years old
        1 vote(s)
        3.6%

      • I believe that the earth is roughly seven thousand years old.
        1 vote(s)
        3.6%
    Change Your Vote



    You can notice by the * that I actually was with the majority on this question.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
  22. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,848
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    the eco system of the earth was balanced before man, and while man was a hunter gatherer.
    noted that you have formally reversed your claim that man cannot choose what they believe and what they do not believe.

    We 'choose' to eradicate the earth of malaria carrying mosquitoes. Man has chosen to change natural evolution by breeding, and now wehave a really fun playground, we get to play with DNA

    I know for a fact that humans have both the ability to choose and cause 'unnatural' selection, if they so 'choose', contrary to your borg model
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
    DennisTate likes this.
  23. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,956
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    An ancient Jewish book hints strongly that cloning took place before the Flood of the time of Noah....


    Book of Jasher chapter 4:

     
    Kokomojojo likes this.
  24. The Last American

    The Last American Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2021
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    692
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I knew I should have never started this thread...

    Is there a way I can lock it and just forget I ever asked a simple question???
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
    DennisTate and joesnagg like this.
  25. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,848
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    well unfortunately what you and I might consider simple can get very complicated depending on who you talk with.
     
    DennisTate likes this.

Share This Page