Is communism immoral?

Discussion in 'Political Science' started by sxane, Sep 3, 2016.

  1. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    Communism is no more immoral than capitalism..They are forms, not living breathing lawyers wanting money..
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  2. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Kode, I am going to respond a little further for you..... It is an honest assesment I am offering you. I don't aim to get in a pi**ing match or anything, because I think our discussion should show mutual respect.
    When I allude to" natural law" my source would be the Bible. You can take it or leave it, that's your choice, but I would present one precept from it to further clarify my case.
    "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." My simple interpretation?? No one is perfect. Not you, not I. We have a disposition to promote self interest. Part of that disposition would be a propensity to deny that simple Truth. From there, it could be said we gather around us a group of like minded individuals to form a "collective" and pursue our self interests. Once that power is secured, we pursue our self interests in total disregard to the rights of others. History has shown this.
    The best way for imperfect humans to govern themselves is to seek and submit to the will of our Creator..... I am realistic enough to know that is just not going to happen. So we have government. It was acknowledged by our Founders that government is a necessary evil. I am in agreement with that. The best solution???? Keep it local and to the "individual". This way oversight is given to safeguard our God given rights as individuals. Yourself interests do not impede mine, and mine don't impede yours. I believe our Constitution and way of life is the best example yet realized that safeguards the "individual".
     
  3. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Then were did you get that idea? It's a gross distortion. What "private property" are you referring to, for example? Your clothes? Your car? Your house? Please provide details of your delusion derived from propaganda and indoctrination..


    To clarify this we would need to discuss specific rights, but suffice it to say that this is a ver, very red herring. Socialism is not in conflict with any of our Constitutional rights.


    Therein lies the success of your brainwashing. Some confront it; some don't. You haven't.
     
  4. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    Nope, it was a swing and a miss...
     
  5. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    All I asked was how you came to believe three erroneous statements:
    "it denies human nature. All attempts by the left lean toward that denying of human nature. They seem to promote the idea human nature will reach a level of "enlightenment."

    I agree with some of what you said and disagree with some of it but that is irrelevant. I just asked how you came to believe those 3 false statements.
     
  6. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it is determined by how you effectively define what "moral" means. If by "moral" you mean soul sucking authoritarianism enforced by tyranny, to describe communism in practice, I would suggest that, NO, communism is never moral. Since we only have that kind of implementation to refer to, it difficult to muse about a more Utopian version of it. I would still challenge the net result of the Utopian view as well. How, in an egalitarian paradigm does any actual achievement get produced? How about exceptionalism? Where does that type of a culture produce anything but stagnation? If, as we are led to believe, the collective become the focus, what promises that the collective then become differentiated enough to be self sustaining? There are so many problems with how collective stagnation is then forced to be overcome, that likely it isn't ever possible to do without tyranny. As we have seen empirically, this also isn't moral.
     
  7. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    One important fact that few here seem to have comprehended and incorporated into their private theories of communism, is that the communist state has never existed. I have explained this about 8 times on this forum and one or two indicated that they saw what I was saying and agreed. The rest just continue to go on in their previous oblivious way, ignoring facts and making the same mistakes over and over and over and over.

    You don't know that communism is a "soul sucking authoritarianism enforced by tyranny" because communism has never existed. And all Marxist theory point clearly to it being impossible. When will you adjust your propaganda to reflect he truth?
     
  8. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Of course it has. The fact that you can't reconcile it in real life to your utopian view of it doesn't diminish the fact that as it has existed is the only thing we can evaluate. So, if the theory suggests that Marxism is "impossible" as you point out, the fun observation is that we then shouldn't consider it at all. Because it is impossible. LOL I would still point out that even in the theoretical, that there are too many issues about what overcomes stagnation that it still remains unworkable, even as a notion. And yet, again, as you pointed out, it's Impossible to achieve.:roflol:
     
  9. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Then tell me what communism is, and where you get your definition.
     
  10. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Why change the subject? You yourself said that Communism is impossible. So who cares?
     
  11. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    So you feel trapped, you doubt your viewpoint, you think I may be able to prove my point, and you think you then may have to change your viewpoint to reflect the reality, but you would rather hide and protect your false ideas in order to preserve your "right" to continue to spread them. Got it.

    I'm not changing the subject. You are the one who made the bogus statement.
     
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  12. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    And yet I don't. But if it makes you feel better, why not? Communism, according to you, is impossible. So, why bother? We clearly have had folks adopt the name to describe their governments, yes? I mean, we can remember the USSR, the Chinese still believe they belong to the communist party, we have Vietnam, there is Cuba, and N Korea. Venezuela seems to be fracturing irrevocably. And not one of those places or countries is a place I want to ever to, or visit. Not because I have an aversion to the people or climate, but because I don't feel those nations would respect my rights as I hold them in this country.

    So, there is no "hiding". It's the recognition that you yourself put a limit on the usefulness of the conversation. You did that. own it.
     
  13. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I will respond to your "leftist Alinsky brainwashing" simply by answering that private property merely translates to the compensation of what one receives by producing in a fair and free market society.
     
  14. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "To clarify this we would need to discuss specific rights, but suffice it to say that this is a ver, very red herring. Socialism is not in conflict with any of our Constitutional rights." ....so you say.
    The largest example of Socialism in America recently obtained is the steps taken to Socialize Healthcare. This ultimately results in panels that make decisions regarding life and death. Example: Should we invest in risky heart surgery on a 70 year old individual or just give him pain meds in preference o help a 30 year old that can have surgery to alleviate ED problems. These decisions in a "free society" would be left up to individuals, their private support system (whatever that may be) and their doctors. Not a panel of" elitists". That is my problem with your entire premise. You feel you might belong to one of those panels that deny your own fallibility and know what is best for every individual. I call it a "herd mentality". That is a mentality a rancher might have over his cattle. We only do what is best for the herd. They are all the same, deserve the same care providing they don't impede the rest of the herd, and they all serve the best interest of the rancher. This is very much in contrast to our Bill of rights.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  15. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Yes you are hiding. I asked your definition of "communism and you dance and dodge. I can only conclude that you know you are wrong but deeply love spreading manure.
     
  16. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Then when you object to "confiscation of property", you are referring to confiscation, by government, of "what one receives" in payment for labor?


    Since socialism is a system that establishes and maintains a relationship between worker and those who direct the work and manage the business in which the two are the same people, and hence the workers control and run the business, our healthcare system has never been socialist. In fact, every such system we have ever had in my lifetime has consisted of private business providing insurance for profit, and providers who are private businesses for the most part, -with the exception of Medicare.

    The ACA, then, has nothing whatsoever to do with socialism. Regulations on business have always existed and do not constitute socialism.


    Notwithstanding that such "panels" do not exist, and notwithstanding that such decisions as you describe have always been made (in the U.S.) by the insurance industry and it led to many, many unnecessary deaths in the past, my above response makes this question moot.
     
  17. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have had a lot of people work for me. I don't know very many of them that had the desire, or the capability of ever running a business.
     
  18. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    And your point is what again? -that workers won't/can't do it? Explain Mondragon.
     
  19. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wage regulation[edit]
    At Mondragon, there are agreed-upon wage ratios between executive work and field or factory work which earns a minimum wage. These ratios range from 3:1 to 9:1 in different cooperatives and average 5:1. That is, the general manager of an average Mondragon cooperative earns no more than 5 times as much as the theoretical minimum wage paid in their cooperative. For most workers, this ratio is smaller because there are few Mondragon worker-owners that earn minimum wages, because most jobs are somewhat specialized and are classified at higher wage levels. The wage ratio of a cooperative is decided periodically by its worker-owners through a democratic vote.[23]

    Compared to similar jobs at local industries, Mondragon managers' wages are considerably lower (as some companies pay their best paid managers hundreds of times more than the lowest-paid employee of the company)[24] and equivalent for middle management, technical and professional levels. Lower wage levels are on average 13% higher than similar jobs at local businesses. Spain's progressive tax rate further reduces any disparity in pay.[23]

    What are these wage incentive deals about? You mean they don't carry the dead weight that Socialism is supposed to always carry? Don't get me wrong. I applaud co-operatves. When they work they are great. They only work however when employees are quality people and even then there must be incentives to perform. As I said and have shown, those along for the ride must be weeded out. Socialism does not do that. They call it "tenure".

    Example: Most any citizen can observe a government/ union job opposed to a "private sector job". The former will require one man to dig, while two lean on a shovel. Who pays for those two shovel leaners??? Those that produce. The private enterprise will do the same job with one who digs. Of course the business owner must pay that man fairly or he will lose him. At the same time he must be fairly compensated for obtaining quality help and the risk it undertakes. There is competition that keeps business honest. Again, that is the engine that keeps HUMAN NATURE honest.
     
  20. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Not so at Mondragon. Are you sure you are referring to socialism?

    That's not socialism.
     
  21. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

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    Communism has never been fully implemented,China is NOT a Communist nation!

    Communism as defined: "a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs."

    The Principles of Communism

    LINK

    No nation today meets it.
     
  22. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    You can conclude what ever you wish. It is amusing, for sure, to watch you get so personally wrapped up in a conversation you yourself admit is impossible. What is communism you ask? Dead. Failed. Swim with it as it circumnavigates the drain all you wish, you will still end up in the sewer it finds.
     
  23. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Failed? That one word proves very well that you don't know what communism is according to Marx. Ah, but maybe you do know what it is according to drluggit.
     
  24. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    You, yourself, claimed the theoretical model Marx crafted was impossible. Would you rather I simply acknowledge that? So, it isn't "failed" so much as I agree with you that it's "impossible". Exactly right.
     
  25. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

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    Human Nature makes Pure Communism impossible to succeed.
     

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