Is communism immoral?

Discussion in 'Political Science' started by sxane, Sep 3, 2016.

  1. SmallTown22

    SmallTown22 Member

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    I would say that communism is immoral. I would argue that a moral form of rule would promote individual freedom. Collectivism is the absolute opposite of this. Obviously there needs to be some structure to prevent anarchy, but I firmly believe individual freedom the highest goal of any institution. People have already argued what communism is, or if it is possible, but I can't see any ideal form of collectivism that does not enslave the individual.
     
  2. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    You can't know because communism has never existed, has it. Socialism is the highest form of democracy. It eliminates enslavement to being reduced to a pair of hands for the private profit of others with no say in the matter. Karl Marx said “Democracy is the road to socialism” because democracy is government of the people, by the people, for the people." The individual has a greater voice and one that makes a difference in socialism than in capitalism. If you're against individual freedoms being suppressed and the enslavement it engenders, you would be against capitalism and in favor of socialism, . . . . --IF you were to actually understand socialism in spite of the 80 years of anti-Marxist BS propaganda we have been fed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  3. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    No. Communism is the probably the most moral system. Collectives (self-sufficient, village-based group living where produce/monies are shared, everyone is expected to work, and everyone is cared for) are as 'civilised' as we're ever likely to get. But that's ideal world stuff, not reality.

    PS: I've stayed in communes for short periods. The best ones, and it pains me to say this, are farming based ones built on some metaphysical ideology (religion or similar). Because ideologies usually come with rules and regulations, it keeps things running smoothly and consistently. Even when that obligation is just a work ethic, it's enough.

    The worst ones are those where a bunch of misfits who don't want to work too hard just build chaotic shacks and do drugs etc. There is no common purpose, no cohesion, no shared labour, and no ownership.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  4. AlNewman

    AlNewman Well-Known Member

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    So you support individual freedom while at the same time rejecting individual freedom, great stand. You have but two choices, freedom or slavery, there is no middle ground.
     
  5. AlNewman

    AlNewman Well-Known Member

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    I hope he doesn't learn from you as you haven't a clue. Democracy is the rule of the mob and involves socialism wherein the mob votes itself benefits stolen from others, normally the minority. Collectivism be it either fascism or communism (same thing different elite) is where the majority thinking they are getting on the elevator instead get the shaft and are led by a group of elites, oligarchy.

    Now capitalism is something to be feared because that is where the little socialist can either be responsible for themselves or starve. Now this capitalism that you fear comes about after the collectivism fails, like Russia, and degrades into anarchy resurrected from chaos.

    If you doubt this, then I suggest you visit Venezuela, the darling little socialist empire in South America that has passed through oligarchy and is now in chaos. There will be a revolution and the people will be free until some psychopath convinces them they need government and the merry-go-round starts all over again.
     
  6. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Socialism is the enslavement of those that produce.
     
  7. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Everyone is expected to work? How is that enforced? If I am going to be cared for regardless why should I work? isn't that a utopian view of human nature?
     
  8. SmallTown22

    SmallTown22 Member

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    It has already been mentioned, but people are not ants or bees. Trying to force individuals into a hive structure is horrific.
     
  9. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Right, so the workers at Arizmendi Bakery in San Francisco enslave themselves. The same for all of these: https://usworker.coop/member-directory/

    LOL!!!!
     
  10. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Coop is short for cooperative which derives from cooperation which by definition is voluntary. Even if they do not often succeed and typically fail.

    Communism is by design and practice involuntary hence enslavement on a massive scale making it the most immoral of systems as history has proven time and time again by those who attempt to institute it.
     
  11. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Wrong it benefits all.
     
  12. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't personally know any of those bakers. Is there a wall around San Francisco keeping them there? Freedom is hard for those of you bent on government control. only strong individuals, I guess can appreciate it.
     
  13. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It has also been equated to a "herd mentality". The weak and sick are culled from the herd for the betterment of all. They do that through government controlled healthcare.
     
  14. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    As I said, reality doesn't support it. The closest we get is in ideology-based communes. Of course there will always be a few who work a bit less than everyone else, but given a 'voluntary entry' establishment, only those who understand the requirements will be involved. Any children born to the commune will grow up knowing that work isn't optional. If they are genuinely incapable of work (physical limitations), they will be supported.

    A good example of a functional, work-based, productive commune is any of the Twelve Tribes establishments. They farm and run small businesses ... and just about everyone pitches in. The pointless communes (pointless other than "I want to escape society") are always the least successful.
     
  15. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Voluntary communism, or majority agreed communism, is not 'force'. Almost all communism in the west (communes ... obviously) are voluntary .. ergo no force involved. They're no more forced than you are to remain with your family (a small commune), or a dog is to remain with its pack (another kind of small commune).
     
  16. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely not true in the 21stC west (my bold).
     
  17. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely not true in the 21stC west (my bold).
     
  18. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Yes especially in the 21stC west.
    It is by design and practice involuntary and that does not change with a turn of the calander or a new date.
     
  19. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    The only COMMUNISM we have in the west this century is in COMMUNES. Communes are voluntary.
     
  20. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think you should perhaps look into the ways of the Amish. They have a lot of very efficient ideas. Again, nothing is forced on them by government. I believe one of the things that leads to their successes is.....they have a strong moral anchor. Communism seems to always want to destroy that moral anchor in favor of "state worship:.
     
  21. SmallTown22

    SmallTown22 Member

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    Okay Crank. I hadn't thought of just a simple commune. I can see that it is a voluntary cooperative. So I guess to some extent it is possible. Then I got to tinkering with it. What if you had a commune of a great scale, say 100,000 people. I'd assume everyone would share basic responsibilities such as food, shelter, and energy production. There would also have to be some kind of military or defense system. I guess my question, if it is possible to create such a large commune, would people still have the freedom outside of their group responsibilities to pursue their natural talents and abilities. Could you have scientists, artists, athletes, ect. Can people take care of business, and still have time to live in a Star Trek utopia? I suppose it isn't impossible to have communal living if people are still free to pursue personal goals. The problem is personal goal is definately not a commune type of concept.
     
  22. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Well, no. Communism doesn't make any comment on ideology, it's merely a system of managing practicalities. Communists (those living communally) can be atheists, religious, or otherwise, and still run according to an ideology which assists in cohesion.

    The Amish are simply an older version of the more recent groups like the Twelve Tribes (who are Messianic Jews, more or less).
     
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Communism only works at the village level. Anything larger is going to problematic, obviously.

    Even then (village communism), the only ones with any sort of longevity are those which run according to an ideology (purpose), engage in trade with the 'outside', and are entirely voluntary. Amish, Twelve Tribes, etc. So basically, any commune which runs like a primary society village. There is heavy obligation to the village as a whole, there is a healthy barter system within the village (and sometimes outside), and there is a reduction in the pursuit of individual desires - at least the level of pursuit which compromises village cohesion/stability.

    Best reading I've ever done on this system is from that stalwart of 20thC 'socialist' economics, Scott Nearing. The man was a flipping genius when it comes to smallholding. And yes, he was a paid up member of the Commies for a while there. It lost him a Professorship or two, actually.
     
  24. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Venezuela isn't a communist economy/society. In fact, you can't know how "communism always ends up" because there has never been a communist economy/society. It's all just a theory.
     
  25. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Let's explore that idea....


    Then Abraham Lincoln was describing socialism iin the Gettysburg Address? All the talk of ours being a "democracy" is false and very undesirable anyway? "Of the people, by the people, and for the people" means answerable to the people and that is bad? Is dictatorship better?


    When communism is spoken of, it is a reference to Marx's work. It is a Marxian idea. "Communism" is not often used to mean the theories of some little-known non-Marxist and a theory that diverges from that of Marx. Rather, it is a direct, specific reference to Marx and his work. He is the most recognized source of any thought of communism or definition and description of communism. So, what, exactly, is Marx's definition/description of "communism". According to Marx, what is "communism" and how does it happen? If you don't know, then you must actually be the one here who is clueless. I'll wait for your answer.


    Moreso in the case of socialism, actually.


    I'll thank you to discuss the facts of the subject and stop ascribing imagined emotions and thoughts to me.

    You really don't know how that happened, do you? Try explaining the connection or progression from the Russian history of seizure of state power to the emergence of state capitalism due to the influence of the 2 main driving forces and resulting in the failure to establish socialism. Show you have a clue.

    Please explain the decades-long influence of U.S. interference in the politics and economics of Venezuela and what that influence produced there. Discuss US A.I.D. and also The National Endowment for Democracy and the damage done to the country by them both. How much did Obama allocate to fund the Venezuelan opposition and interfere? Then explain why the U.S. puppet, Carmona, was busy dissolving the parliament and the courts leaving him free to rule by decree, while Chavez was in jail briefly.

    The U.S. government knew all about the 2002 coup that was to occur against Chavez two days before it happened. In CIA documents obtained by the FOIA, it shows that the CIA identified Chavez and 10 others to be arrested in the 2002 coup. Isn't that peculiar?

    But you didn't know anything about this because it is actually you who is the clueless one here.
     

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